[INDOLOGY] by chance, accidentally

Tue May 17 12:56:13 UTC 2016

> Are you calling this 'explaining' as 'legitimating'?

The mythical story in question serves as an instrument of legitimation and
prestige. As I would see it - the element of "pure chance" contained in the
story makes it possible to treat new cultic practices as *safe*.

No element of planned revolt there, but deep changes in the traditional
pattern of religious life: broader base of social participation,
empowerment of women, new class of priests.

Best,

Artur

2016-05-17 10:58 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>:

> > When Sati's body is dismembered - do parts of it fall down on the earth
> according to some plan? Or - is their dispersal purely accidental?
> Legitimating in this way the haphazard geography of old (tribal) shrines
> devoted to female divinities?
>
>
> ------- It is common knowledge in myth studies that myths, not only
> Indian, 'explain' the facts or their intriguing aspects. Are you calling
> this 'explaining' as 'legitimating'?
>
> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 2:16 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Chance is not the same as fate, I agree. When individuals are affected
>> by  events occurring by chance, it is attributed to their fate. In the
>> key events in Ramayana and Mahabharata which are attributed to pure chance
>> and power of fate, the folk songs articulating popular exegesis lament that
>> the  individuals are affected by  events occurring by
>> chance, and attribute it to the fate of the individuals.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>>
>>> Nagaraj Paturi wrote:
>>>
>>> >> ... many key events in Ramayana and Mahabharata are attributed to
>>> pure chance and power of fate.
>>>
>>> I think one needs to differentiate between 'chance' and 'fate'.
>>>
>>> Artur
>>>
>>> 2016-05-17 10:12 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl>:
>>>
>>>> When Sati's body is dismembered - do parts of it fall down on the earth
>>>> according to some plan? Or - is their dispersal purely accidental?
>>>> Legitimating in this way the haphazard geography of old (tribal) shrines
>>>> devoted to female divinities?
>>>>
>>>> Does Garuda lose the four drops of amrita in a planned way? Or - are
>>>> they lost by pure chance? Do they land - purely accidentally - in places
>>>> possessing - by pure chance - terrain features suitable for establishing
>>>> large pilgrimage centers?
>>>>
>>>> Artur
>>>>
>>>> PS. I try to recall the mythical (puranic?) narrative, no success. A
>>>> king, meets someone, purely accidentally, has sex with that person, and
>>>> that results in his becoming pregnant. And, after nine months, a child is
>>>> born, out of its father/mother's left side. Now - what happened to the
>>>> child?
>>>>
>>>> A,
>>>>
>>>> 2016-05-17 9:25 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>:
>>>>
>>>>> 3. the aspect of pure chance in ancient Sanskrit narratives.
>>>>> Mrichchhakatika is where the author clearly mentions bhavitavyataa as
>>>>> one of the themes of the play. The entire play has a series of dramatic
>>>>> turns of events each of which occur just by pure chance.
>>>>>
>>>>> Element of fate in Shakespeare's plays is a widely discussed theme. I
>>>>> guess that this could have inspired some to take up a similar theme with
>>>>> regard to Sanskrit plays.
>>>>>
>>>>> Many s'aapa events in Sanskrit narratives involve 'pure chance', and
>>>>> the s'aapa turns out to be the cause for later events. Dasaratha getting
>>>>> cursed by Sravanakumara's parents is just by pure chance. But it is this
>>>>> curse which causes Rama's vanavaasa and all the later events.
>>>>>
>>>>> In Pratimaa naaTakam , Bhasa makes Kaikeyi plead innocence in front of
>>>>> Bharata who was angry with him, blaming her demands on the power of the
>>>>> curse and makes Bharata say, "this has scope for a lot of thinking " (
>>>>> something like "good point!")
>>>>>
>>>>> In popular exegesis in India, quite often taking the form of folk
>>>>> songs, many key events in Ramayana and Mahabharata are attributed to pure
>>>>> chance and power of fate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Good topic if not yet covered.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 9:03 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <
>>>>> nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> 1.  something, some event, that happened accidentally, by pure chance
>>>>>> - but, finally, had the power to  influence the development of the Indian
>>>>>> Civilization (in the spheres of thought, religion, social relations, etc.)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> and
>>>>>>
>>>>>> 2. Status of "(pure, sheer) chance" in Indian thought?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> are entirely two different things.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #1 seems to be a question on Indian history, #2 on Indian thought.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Prof. Resnick brought yet another issue: 3. the aspect of pure chance
>>>>>> in ancient Sanskrit narratives.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #2 & #3 could be considered as connected.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> #1 need not be connected to #2  & #3.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 4:32 AM, Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Interesting question. In the Maha-bharata, for example, human effort
>>>>>>> — purusha-kAra — is contrasted with daiva — providence/divine intervention
>>>>>>> or will. In Bhagavad-gita 9.10, we find the statement that “Prakrti
>>>>>>> begets…by my supervision/oversight (adhy-aksha)." In the Gita 13.21, and
>>>>>>> elsewhere, we find a two part concept of causality that matches the twin
>>>>>>> ontology of body and soul. Not to speak of the philosophical implications
>>>>>>> of karma.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> These are well known approaches to causality.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am also curious to know to what extent Indian tradition has
>>>>>>> considered pure chance, sometimes called yadRcchA, or adverbially akasmAt,
>>>>>>> to be a legitimate cause of events or conditions in this world.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Howard
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On May 16, 2016, at 11:32 AM, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Colleagues.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> one more question.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Do you know of something, some event, that happened accidentally, by
>>>>>>> pure chance - but, finally, had the power to  influence the development of
>>>>>>> the Indian Civilization (in the spheres of thought, religion, social
>>>>>>> relations, etc.)?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Status of "(pure, sheer) chance" in Indian thought?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Artur Karp
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Poland
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>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>>
>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>>
>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>>
>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>>
>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>
>
>
>

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