> When Sati's body is dismembered - do parts of it fall down on the earth according to some plan? Or - is their dispersal purely accidental? Legitimating in this way the haphazard geography of old (tribal) shrines devoted to female divinities?------- It is common knowledge in myth studies that myths, not only Indian, 'explain' the facts or their intriguing aspects. Are you calling this 'explaining' as 'legitimating'?On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 2:16 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi@gmail.com> wrote:Chance is not the same as fate, I agree. When individuals are affected by events occurring by chance, it is attributed to their fate. In the key events in Ramayana and Mahabharata which are attributed to pure chance and power of fate, the folk songs articulating popular exegesis lament that the individuals are affected by events occurring by chance, and attribute it to the fate of the individuals.On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Artur Karp <karp@uw.edu.pl> wrote:Nagaraj Paturi wrote:>> ... many key events in Ramayana and Mahabharata are attributed to pure chance and power of fate.I think one needs to differentiate between 'chance' and 'fate'.Artur2016-05-17 10:12 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp <karp@uw.edu.pl>:When Sati's body is dismembered - do parts of it fall down on the earth according to some plan? Or - is their dispersal purely accidental? Legitimating in this way the haphazard geography of old (tribal) shrines devoted to female divinities?Does Garuda lose the four drops of amrita in a planned way? Or - are they lost by pure chance? Do they land - purely accidentally - in places possessing - by pure chance - terrain features suitable for establishing large pilgrimage centers?ArturPS. I try to recall the mythical (puranic?) narrative, no success. A king, meets someone, purely accidentally, has sex with that person, and that results in his becoming pregnant. And, after nine months, a child is born, out of its father/mother's left side. Now - what happened to the child?A,2016-05-17 9:25 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi@gmail.com>:3. the aspect of pure chance in ancient Sanskrit narratives.Mrichchhakatika is where the author clearly mentions bhavitavyataa as one of the themes of the play. The entire play has a series of dramatic turns of events each of which occur just by pure chance.Element of fate in Shakespeare's plays is a widely discussed theme. I guess that this could have inspired some to take up a similar theme with regard to Sanskrit plays.Many s'aapa events in Sanskrit narratives involve 'pure chance', and the s'aapa turns out to be the cause for later events. Dasaratha getting cursed by Sravanakumara's parents is just by pure chance. But it is this curse which causes Rama's vanavaasa and all the later events.In Pratimaa naaTakam , Bhasa makes Kaikeyi plead innocence in front of Bharata who was angry with him, blaming her demands on the power of the curse and makes Bharata say, "this has scope for a lot of thinking " ( something like "good point!")In popular exegesis in India, quite often taking the form of folk songs, many key events in Ramayana and Mahabharata are attributed to pure chance and power of fate.Good topic if not yet covered.On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 9:03 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi@gmail.com> wrote:1. something, some event, that happened accidentally, by pure chance - but, finally, had the power to influence the development of the Indian Civilization (in the spheres of thought, religion, social relations, etc.)?and2. Status of "(pure, sheer) chance" in Indian thought?are entirely two different things.#1 seems to be a question on Indian history, #2 on Indian thought.Prof. Resnick brought yet another issue: 3. the aspect of pure chance in ancient Sanskrit narratives.#2 & #3 could be considered as connected.#1 need not be connected to #2 & #3.--On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 4:32 AM, Howard Resnick <hr@ivs.edu> wrote:Interesting question. In the Maha-bharata, for example, human effort — purusha-kAra — is contrasted with daiva — providence/divine intervention or will. In Bhagavad-gita 9.10, we find the statement that “Prakrti begets…by my supervision/oversight (adhy-aksha)." In the Gita 13.21, and elsewhere, we find a two part concept of causality that matches the twin ontology of body and soul. Not to speak of the philosophical implications of karma.These are well known approaches to causality.I am also curious to know to what extent Indian tradition has considered pure chance, sometimes called yadRcchA, or adverbially akasmAt, to be a legitimate cause of events or conditions in this world.HowardOn May 16, 2016, at 11:32 AM, Artur Karp <karp@uw.edu.pl> wrote:_______________________________________________Dear Colleagues.one more question.Do you know of something, some event, that happened accidentally, by pure chance - but, finally, had the power to influence the development of the Indian Civilization (in the spheres of thought, religion, social relations, etc.)?Status of "(pure, sheer) chance" in Indian thought?Artur KarpPoland
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http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)Nagaraj PaturiHyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.Former Senior Professor of Cultural StudiesFLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
--Nagaraj PaturiHyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.Former Senior Professor of Cultural StudiesFLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
--Nagaraj PaturiHyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.Former Senior Professor of Cultural StudiesFLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
--Nagaraj PaturiHyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.Former Senior Professor of Cultural StudiesFLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )