[INDOLOGY] by chance, accidentally

Sat May 21 19:05:30 UTC 2016

Fresh on academia.edu:

Olivier Hexter: *The Size of History: Coincidence, Counterfactuality and
Questions of Scale in History*

https://www.academia.edu/25419902/The_Size_of_History_Coincidence_Counterfactuality_and_Questions_of_Scale_in_History

in: The Challenge of Chance 2016: A Multidisciplinary Approach from Science
and the Humanities (The Frontiers Collection) [Hardcover, Springer]

[*This title has not yet been released*.]

Best,

Artur Karp

2016-05-17 14:56 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl>:

> > Are you calling this 'explaining' as 'legitimating'?
>
> The mythical story in question serves as an instrument of legitimation and
> prestige. As I would see it - the element of "pure chance" contained in the
> story makes it possible to treat new cultic practices as *safe*.
>
> No element of planned revolt there, but deep changes in the traditional
> pattern of religious life: broader base of social participation,
> empowerment of women, new class of priests.
>
> Best,
>
> Artur
>
> 2016-05-17 10:58 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>:
>
>> > When Sati's body is dismembered - do parts of it fall down on the earth
>> according to some plan? Or - is their dispersal purely accidental?
>> Legitimating in this way the haphazard geography of old (tribal) shrines
>> devoted to female divinities?
>>
>>
>> ------- It is common knowledge in myth studies that myths, not only
>> Indian, 'explain' the facts or their intriguing aspects. Are you calling
>> this 'explaining' as 'legitimating'?
>>
>> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 2:16 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Chance is not the same as fate, I agree. When individuals are affected
>>> by  events occurring by chance, it is attributed to their fate. In the
>>> key events in Ramayana and Mahabharata which are attributed to pure chance
>>> and power of fate, the folk songs articulating popular exegesis lament that
>>> the  individuals are affected by  events occurring by
>>> chance, and attribute it to the fate of the individuals.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Nagaraj Paturi wrote:
>>>>
>>>> >> ... many key events in Ramayana and Mahabharata are attributed to
>>>> pure chance and power of fate.
>>>>
>>>> I think one needs to differentiate between 'chance' and 'fate'.
>>>>
>>>> Artur
>>>>
>>>> 2016-05-17 10:12 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl>:
>>>>
>>>>> When Sati's body is dismembered - do parts of it fall down on the
>>>>> earth according to some plan? Or - is their dispersal purely accidental?
>>>>> Legitimating in this way the haphazard geography of old (tribal) shrines
>>>>> devoted to female divinities?
>>>>>
>>>>> Does Garuda lose the four drops of amrita in a planned way? Or - are
>>>>> they lost by pure chance? Do they land - purely accidentally - in places
>>>>> possessing - by pure chance - terrain features suitable for establishing
>>>>> large pilgrimage centers?
>>>>>
>>>>> Artur
>>>>>
>>>>> PS. I try to recall the mythical (puranic?) narrative, no success. A
>>>>> king, meets someone, purely accidentally, has sex with that person, and
>>>>> that results in his becoming pregnant. And, after nine months, a child is
>>>>> born, out of its father/mother's left side. Now - what happened to the
>>>>> child?
>>>>>
>>>>> A,
>>>>>
>>>>> 2016-05-17 9:25 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> 3. the aspect of pure chance in ancient Sanskrit narratives.
>>>>>> Mrichchhakatika is where the author clearly mentions bhavitavyataa as
>>>>>> one of the themes of the play. The entire play has a series of dramatic
>>>>>> turns of events each of which occur just by pure chance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Element of fate in Shakespeare's plays is a widely discussed theme. I
>>>>>> guess that this could have inspired some to take up a similar theme with
>>>>>> regard to Sanskrit plays.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Many s'aapa events in Sanskrit narratives involve 'pure chance', and
>>>>>> the s'aapa turns out to be the cause for later events. Dasaratha getting
>>>>>> cursed by Sravanakumara's parents is just by pure chance. But it is this
>>>>>> curse which causes Rama's vanavaasa and all the later events.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In Pratimaa naaTakam , Bhasa makes Kaikeyi plead innocence in front
>>>>>> of Bharata who was angry with him, blaming her demands on the power of the
>>>>>> curse and makes Bharata say, "this has scope for a lot of thinking " (
>>>>>> something like "good point!")
>>>>>>
>>>>>> In popular exegesis in India, quite often taking the form of folk
>>>>>> songs, many key events in Ramayana and Mahabharata are attributed to pure
>>>>>> chance and power of fate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Good topic if not yet covered.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 9:03 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <
>>>>>> nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1.  something, some event, that happened accidentally, by pure
>>>>>>> chance - but, finally, had the power to  influence the development of the
>>>>>>> Indian Civilization (in the spheres of thought, religion, social relations,
>>>>>>> etc.)?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. Status of "(pure, sheer) chance" in Indian thought?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> are entirely two different things.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> #1 seems to be a question on Indian history, #2 on Indian thought.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Prof. Resnick brought yet another issue: 3. the aspect of pure
>>>>>>> chance in ancient Sanskrit narratives.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> #2 & #3 could be considered as connected.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> #1 need not be connected to #2  & #3.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 4:32 AM, Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Interesting question. In the Maha-bharata, for example, human
>>>>>>>> effort — purusha-kAra — is contrasted with daiva — providence/divine
>>>>>>>> intervention or will. In Bhagavad-gita 9.10, we find the statement that
>>>>>>>> “Prakrti begets…by my supervision/oversight (adhy-aksha)." In the Gita
>>>>>>>> 13.21, and elsewhere, we find a two part concept of causality that matches
>>>>>>>> the twin ontology of body and soul. Not to speak of the philosophical
>>>>>>>> implications of karma.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> These are well known approaches to causality.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I am also curious to know to what extent Indian tradition has
>>>>>>>> considered pure chance, sometimes called yadRcchA, or adverbially akasmAt,
>>>>>>>> to be a legitimate cause of events or conditions in this world.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Howard
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On May 16, 2016, at 11:32 AM, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear Colleagues.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> one more question.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Do you know of something, some event, that happened accidentally,
>>>>>>>> by pure chance - but, finally, had the power to  influence the development
>>>>>>>> of the Indian Civilization (in the spheres of thought, religion, social
>>>>>>>> relations, etc.)?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Status of "(pure, sheer) chance" in Indian thought?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Artur Karp
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Poland
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>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>
>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>
>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>
>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>
>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

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