[INDOLOGY] by chance, accidentally

Tue May 17 08:58:40 UTC 2016

> When Sati's body is dismembered - do parts of it fall down on the earth
according to some plan? Or - is their dispersal purely accidental?
Legitimating in this way the haphazard geography of old (tribal) shrines
devoted to female divinities?

------- It is common knowledge in myth studies that myths, not only Indian,
'explain' the facts or their intriguing aspects. Are you calling this
'explaining' as 'legitimating'?

On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 2:16 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Chance is not the same as fate, I agree. When individuals are affected by
> events occurring by chance, it is attributed to their fate. In the key
> events in Ramayana and Mahabharata which are attributed to pure chance and
> power of fate, the folk songs articulating popular exegesis lament that the
> individuals are affected by  events occurring by chance, and attribute
> it to the fate of the individuals.
>
>
> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 1:46 PM, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>
>> Nagaraj Paturi wrote:
>>
>> >> ... many key events in Ramayana and Mahabharata are attributed to
>> pure chance and power of fate.
>>
>> I think one needs to differentiate between 'chance' and 'fate'.
>>
>> Artur
>>
>> 2016-05-17 10:12 GMT+02:00 Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl>:
>>
>>> When Sati's body is dismembered - do parts of it fall down on the earth
>>> according to some plan? Or - is their dispersal purely accidental?
>>> Legitimating in this way the haphazard geography of old (tribal) shrines
>>> devoted to female divinities?
>>>
>>> Does Garuda lose the four drops of amrita in a planned way? Or - are
>>> they lost by pure chance? Do they land - purely accidentally - in places
>>> possessing - by pure chance - terrain features suitable for establishing
>>> large pilgrimage centers?
>>>
>>> Artur
>>>
>>> PS. I try to recall the mythical (puranic?) narrative, no success. A
>>> king, meets someone, purely accidentally, has sex with that person, and
>>> that results in his becoming pregnant. And, after nine months, a child is
>>> born, out of its father/mother's left side. Now - what happened to the
>>> child?
>>>
>>> A,
>>>
>>> 2016-05-17 9:25 GMT+02:00 Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>> 3. the aspect of pure chance in ancient Sanskrit narratives.
>>>> Mrichchhakatika is where the author clearly mentions bhavitavyataa as
>>>> one of the themes of the play. The entire play has a series of dramatic
>>>> turns of events each of which occur just by pure chance.
>>>>
>>>> Element of fate in Shakespeare's plays is a widely discussed theme. I
>>>> guess that this could have inspired some to take up a similar theme with
>>>> regard to Sanskrit plays.
>>>>
>>>> Many s'aapa events in Sanskrit narratives involve 'pure chance', and
>>>> the s'aapa turns out to be the cause for later events. Dasaratha getting
>>>> cursed by Sravanakumara's parents is just by pure chance. But it is this
>>>> curse which causes Rama's vanavaasa and all the later events.
>>>>
>>>> In Pratimaa naaTakam , Bhasa makes Kaikeyi plead innocence in front of
>>>> Bharata who was angry with him, blaming her demands on the power of the
>>>> curse and makes Bharata say, "this has scope for a lot of thinking " (
>>>> something like "good point!")
>>>>
>>>> In popular exegesis in India, quite often taking the form of folk
>>>> songs, many key events in Ramayana and Mahabharata are attributed to pure
>>>> chance and power of fate.
>>>>
>>>> Good topic if not yet covered.
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 9:03 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <
>>>> nagarajpaturi at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> 1.  something, some event, that happened accidentally, by pure chance
>>>>> - but, finally, had the power to  influence the development of the Indian
>>>>> Civilization (in the spheres of thought, religion, social relations, etc.)?
>>>>>
>>>>> and
>>>>>
>>>>> 2. Status of "(pure, sheer) chance" in Indian thought?
>>>>>
>>>>> are entirely two different things.
>>>>>
>>>>> #1 seems to be a question on Indian history, #2 on Indian thought.
>>>>>
>>>>> Prof. Resnick brought yet another issue: 3. the aspect of pure chance
>>>>> in ancient Sanskrit narratives.
>>>>>
>>>>> #2 & #3 could be considered as connected.
>>>>>
>>>>> #1 need not be connected to #2  & #3.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, May 17, 2016 at 4:32 AM, Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting question. In the Maha-bharata, for example, human effort
>>>>>> — purusha-kAra — is contrasted with daiva — providence/divine intervention
>>>>>> or will. In Bhagavad-gita 9.10, we find the statement that “Prakrti
>>>>>> begets…by my supervision/oversight (adhy-aksha)." In the Gita 13.21, and
>>>>>> elsewhere, we find a two part concept of causality that matches the twin
>>>>>> ontology of body and soul. Not to speak of the philosophical implications
>>>>>> of karma.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> These are well known approaches to causality.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am also curious to know to what extent Indian tradition has
>>>>>> considered pure chance, sometimes called yadRcchA, or adverbially akasmAt,
>>>>>> to be a legitimate cause of events or conditions in this world.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Howard
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On May 16, 2016, at 11:32 AM, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Colleagues.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> one more question.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you know of something, some event, that happened accidentally, by
>>>>>> pure chance - but, finally, had the power to  influence the development of
>>>>>> the Indian Civilization (in the spheres of thought, religion, social
>>>>>> relations, etc.)?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Status of "(pure, sheer) chance" in Indian thought?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Artur Karp
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Poland
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>>
>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>>
>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>>
>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>>
>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>
>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>
>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>
>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>
>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>
>
>
>

-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

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