[INDOLOGY] Frits Staal on the sameness of Vedic recitation

Tue Feb 13 00:21:17 UTC 2024

Thanks, Michael. These multiple issues always need to be differentiated, as
you have nicely done here. I have no disagreement with this clarification.
Often the lone phrase "it has always remained the same" causes too much
confusion. Best,

Madhav

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

On Mon, Feb 12, 2024 at 4:01 PM Michael Witzel <ejmwitzel at icloud.com> wrote:

> Dear All,
> there are 2 issues muddled up in the current discussion that must be
> looked at, not in static fashion (“Vedic Variants”), but in their
> historical development.
>
>
>
> *1.** Local pronunciation of (RV) Mantras. *
>
>
>
> *While the Ṛgveda text is the same  in N,E,S,W India, (see recent complete
> recordings of the RV in Kerala, Bengaluru, etc.), the
> regional pronunciation varies a lot, which  is well known. *
>
>
>
> *Thus Kashmiri īḍe -> ēḍe, purohitam -> purohētam, yajñasya :  jña ->
> Maharasthra  dnya, N. India gny,  or the confusion of y/j and v/b described
> in late Vedic (Pratijñāsūtra, I think); or P.Thieme’s teacher, the great
> Pāṇinīya KK Misra, always spoke of the binjana… *
>
>
>
> *Kerala pronunciation – forget a few cases like agachat | ->
> agacchal-l-l   -- generally seems close to the one of the time of the
> collection of RV stanzas. *
>
>
>
> *2.** Vedic Variants occur in the adaptation and transmission of RV
> mantras in OTHER Vedas (see already Oldenberg’s Prolegomena,  1888, finally
> translated into English in
> 2005,  see: https://indicbrands.com/product/prolegomena-on-metre-and-textual-history-of-the-rgveda-metrische-und-textgeschichtliche-prolegomena-berlin-1888/
> <https://indicbrands.com/product/prolegomena-on-metre-and-textual-history-of-the-rgveda-metrische-und-textgeschichtliche-prolegomena-berlin-1888/>*
>
>
>
> *While RV transmission has been consistent --- after the early,
> initial sound (not word!) changes like īḍe -> Iḷe or súvàr -> svàr) and the
> subsequent  orthoepic diaskeuasis (like pāvaka/pavāka),  resulting in
> Śākalya’s RV Padapāṭha.*
>
>
>
> *However,  RV mantras have been taken over early on by various Śākhās of
> the YV, SV, AV in “deteriorated” (perseverated) form, see Oldenberg (and
> even Aufrecht’s introduction to his RV edition!). *
>
>
>
> *Oldenberg clearly shows how RV Mantras were adopted in perseverated form
> into the early YV while the later YV (Agnicayana) uses the correct,
> established forms of the RV transmission.*
>
>
>
> *Once adopted by the YV, SV, AV, they have been transmitted faithfully in
> the form they had attained in these various Śākhās. Hence so many “Vedic
> Variants”.*
>
>
>
> *3.** In sum, we must not confuse local pronunciation and adaptation of
> RV mantras by other Vedas with the uninterrupted transmission of  RV
> Mantras ---  since c. 1250 BCE according to new data of ancient DNA: first
> steppe aDNA recorded in India, in Swat… (Narasimhan 2019).*
>
>
> * Cheers,*
>
> *Michael*
>
>
>
> On Feb 12, 2024, at 2:14 PM, Shrikant Bahulkar via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> What Madhav says is correct. In his book "Veda Recitation in Vārāṇasī",
> Wayne Howard points out how the same mantra or hymn is recited by the
> reciters differently. There is a major difference in the way of the
> recitation of the Ṛgveda (Maharashtra and Kerala), Śukla Yajurveda
> (Mādhyandina and Kāṇva), Jaiminīya Sāmaveda (Tamilnadu and Nambudiri), and
> so on.
> Shrikant Bahulkar
> Chief Editor
> Bhāgavata Purāṇa Project
> Bhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, Pune
>
> On Mon, 12 Feb 2024 at 09:46, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> I am not quite sure of the "sameness" of the Vedic recitation across
>> different regions of India. To me they sound as different as the
>> pronunciation of English in different parts of India. Not just the Vedas,
>> but the pronunciation of Sanskrit itself differs from region to region,
>> affected by the mother-tongues of its users. The three volumes of "Vedic
>> Variants" also sufficiently point to a great deal of variation.
>>
>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore,
>> India
>>
>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Feb 11, 2024 at 3:46 PM David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Michael,
>>>
>>> Thanks a lot. That seems to be the quote I was looking for. Very helpful!
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> David Reigle
>>> Colorado, U.S.A.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Feb 11, 2024 at 4:04 PM Allen, Michael S (msa2b) via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear David,
>>>>
>>>> I don't know about Frits Staal, but Michael Witzel at least has made
>>>> the comparison of Vedic recitation to an audio recording: "The Vedic texts
>>>> were orally composed and transmitted, without the use of script, in an
>>>> unbroken line of transmission from teacher to student that was formalized
>>>> early on. This ensured an impeccable textual transmission superior to the
>>>> classical texts of other cultures; it is, in fact, something like a *tape-recording
>>>> *of ca. 1500–500 BCE. Not just the actual words, but even the
>>>> long-lost musical (tonal) accent (as in old Greek or in Japanese) has been
>>>> preserved up to the present." Source: *"*Vedas and Upanishads," ch. 3
>>>> of *The Blackwell Companion to Hinduism, * ed. Gavin Flood, 2003, pp.
>>>> 68-9.
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>> Michael S. Allen
>>>> Associate Professor and Interim Associate Chair
>>>> Department of Religious Studies
>>>> University of Virginia
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------------------------------
>>>> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
>>>> David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, February 11, 2024 5:23 PM
>>>> *To:* Indology <indology at list.indology.info>
>>>> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] Frits Staal on the sameness of Vedic recitation
>>>>
>>>> It is often said the pronunciation of the Vedas in Vedic recitation in
>>>> all parts of India, despite widely different local vernaculars, is the
>>>> same. This statement is attributed to Frits Staal. The idea is that he made
>>>> recordings of Vedic recitation in widely different parts of India and found
>>>> this to be true. As part of the same statement he apparently said that the
>>>> Vedas are the closest thing we have to a 3000-year-old audio recording.
>>>> Does anyone know where he made this statement?
>>>>
>>>> I have not found it in his monumental 1983 book, *Agni: The Vedic
>>>> Ritual of the Fire Altar*, nor in his more popular 2008 book, *Discovering
>>>> the Vedas*. I thought it might be in his 1961 book, *Nambudiri Veda
>>>> Recitation,* but I did not find it there, either. Incidentally, when I
>>>> could not at first find my copy of this book, I searched the web for
>>>> it, but did not find a digital copy. So when I later found my copy, I
>>>> scanned it, and I will ask our digital expert Lubomir Ondračka to upload it
>>>> to archive.org.
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> David Reigle
>>>> Colorado, U.S.A.
>>>>
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>>>>
>>>
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>>
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>
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>
>
> Michael Witzel
> Wales Research Prof. of Sanskrit (=Emeritus)
> Dept. of South Asian Studies, Harvard University
> ph. 1 - 617 496 2990
> witzel at fas.harvard.edu
> www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htm
> Residence: Yokohama, Japan
>
>
>
>
>
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