Dear All,there are 2 issues muddled up in the current discussion that must be looked at, not in static fashion (“Vedic Variants”), but in their historical development.
1. Local pronunciation of (RV) Mantras.
While the Ṛgveda text is the same in N,E,S,W India, (see recent complete recordings of the RV in Kerala, Bengaluru, etc.), the regional pronunciation varies a lot, which is well known.
Thus Kashmiri īḍe -> ēḍe, purohitam -> purohētam, yajñasya : jña -> Maharasthra dnya, N. India gny, or the confusion of y/j and v/b described in late Vedic (Pratijñāsūtra, I think); or P.Thieme’s teacher, the great Pāṇinīya KK Misra, always spoke of the binjana…
Kerala pronunciation – forget a few cases like agachat | -> agacchal-l-l -- generally seems close to the one of the time of the collection of RV stanzas.
2. Vedic Variants occur in the adaptation and transmission of RV mantras in OTHER Vedas (see already Oldenberg’s Prolegomena, 1888, finally translated into English in 2005, see: https://indicbrands.com/product/prolegomena-on-metre-and-textual-history-of-the-rgveda-metrische-und-textgeschichtliche-prolegomena-berlin-1888/
While RV transmission has been consistent --- after the early, initial sound (not word!) changes like īḍe -> Iḷe or súvàr -> svàr) and the subsequent orthoepic diaskeuasis (like pāvaka/pavāka), resulting in Śākalya’s RV Padapāṭha.
However, RV mantras have been taken over early on by various Śākhās of the YV, SV, AV in “deteriorated” (perseverated) form, see Oldenberg (and even Aufrecht’s introduction to his RV edition!).
Oldenberg clearly shows how RV Mantras were adopted in perseverated form into the early YV while the later YV (Agnicayana) uses the correct, established forms of the RV transmission.
Once adopted by the YV, SV, AV, they have been transmitted faithfully in the form they had attained in these various Śākhās. Hence so many “Vedic Variants”.
3. In sum, we must not confuse local pronunciation and adaptation of RV mantras by other Vedas with the uninterrupted transmission of RV Mantras --- since c. 1250 BCE according to new data of ancient DNA: first steppe aDNA recorded in India, in Swat… (Narasimhan 2019).
Cheers,
Michael
On Feb 12, 2024, at 2:14 PM, Shrikant Bahulkar via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> wrote:What Madhav says is correct. In his book "Veda Recitation in Vārāṇasī", Wayne Howard points out how the same mantra or hymn is recited by the reciters differently. There is a major difference in the way of the recitation of the Ṛgveda (Maharashtra and Kerala), Śukla Yajurveda (Mādhyandina and Kāṇva), Jaiminīya Sāmaveda (Tamilnadu and Nambudiri), and so on.Shrikant BahulkarChief EditorBhāgavata Purāṇa ProjectBhandarkar Oriental Research Institute, PuneOn Mon, 12 Feb 2024 at 09:46, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> wrote:I am not quite sure of the "sameness" of the Vedic recitation across different regions of India. To me they sound as different as the pronunciation of English in different parts of India. Not just the Vedas, but the pronunciation of Sanskrit itself differs from region to region, affected by the mother-tongues of its users. The three volumes of "Vedic Variants" also sufficiently point to a great deal of variation.Madhav M. DeshpandeProfessor Emeritus, Sanskrit and LinguisticsUniversity of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USASenior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu StudiesAdjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]On Sun, Feb 11, 2024 at 3:46 PM David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> wrote:Dear Michael,Thanks a lot. That seems to be the quote I was looking for. Very helpful!Best regards,David ReigleColorado, U.S.A.On Sun, Feb 11, 2024 at 4:04 PM Allen, Michael S (msa2b) via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> wrote:Dear David,
I don't know about Frits Staal, but Michael Witzel at least has made the comparison of Vedic recitation to an audio recording: "The Vedic texts were orally composed and transmitted, without the use of script, in an unbroken line of transmission from teacher to student that was formalized early on. This ensured an impeccable textual transmission superior to the classical texts of other cultures; it is, in fact, something like a tape-recording of ca. 1500–500 BCE. Not just the actual words, but even the long-lost musical (tonal) accent (as in old Greek or in Japanese) has been preserved up to the present." Source: "Vedas and Upanishads," ch. 3 of The Blackwell Companion to Hinduism, ed. Gavin Flood, 2003, pp. 68-9.
Best wishes,Michael
Michael S. AllenAssociate Professor and Interim Associate ChairDepartment of Religious StudiesUniversity of Virginia
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces@list.indology.info> on behalf of David and Nancy Reigle via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info>
Sent: Sunday, February 11, 2024 5:23 PM
To: Indology <indology@list.indology.info>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Frits Staal on the sameness of Vedic recitationIt is often said the pronunciation of the Vedas in Vedic recitation in all parts of India, despite widely different local vernaculars, is the same. This statement is attributed to Frits Staal. The idea is that he made recordings of Vedic recitation in widely different parts of India and found this to be true. As part of the same statement he apparently said that the Vedas are the closest thing we have to a 3000-year-old audio recording. Does anyone know where he made this statement?
I have not found it in his monumental 1983 book, Agni: The Vedic Ritual of the Fire Altar, nor in his more popular 2008 book, Discovering the Vedas. I thought it might be in his 1961 book, Nambudiri Veda Recitation, but I did not find it there, either. Incidentally, when I could not at first find my copy of this book, I searched the web for it, but did not find a digital copy. So when I later found my copy, I scanned it, and I will ask our digital expert Lubomir Ondračka to upload it to archive.org.
Best regards,
David ReigleColorado, U.S.A.
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY@list.indology.info
https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY@list.indology.info
https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY@list.indology.info
https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
_______________________________________________
INDOLOGY mailing list
INDOLOGY@list.indology.info
https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indologyMichael Witzel
Wales Research Prof. of Sanskrit (=Emeritus)
Dept. of South Asian Studies, Harvard University
ph. 1 - 617 496 2990
witzel@fas.harvard.edu
www.people.fas.harvard.edu/~witzel/mwpage.htmResidence: Yokohama, Japan