[INDOLOGY] Whitney and doubling of "ch"

Wed Oct 18 20:42:38 UTC 2023

Interesting …

On Oct 18, 2023, at 15:33, Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu> wrote:

At least, this manuscript seems to write गछति and अछा, for what would normally be read as गच्छति and अच्छा.
<image.png>

But there is likely to be variation among the manuscripts.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 1:22 PM Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
My 2¢ worth:

Whatever the motivation may be for the spelling with a single <ch> in the Rig Veda (and let’s keep in mind that the “real” Rig Veda is oral), the syllable preceding <ch> in forms like gachati ‘goes’ is heavy, not light, indicating that we are dealing with cluster or geminate ([cch] or the like); compare RV 1.1.4c sá íd devéṣu gachati in an iambic cadence. Has anybody looked at old MSS of the Rig Veda to see whether in indigenous scripts forms like ga(c)chati are written with छ or with च्छ (or their equivalents)?

All the best,

Hans Henrich

On Oct 18, 2023, at 15:06, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:

Thank you everybody.  This was sent to me by Michael Witzel and I don't think he would mind if I share it.

a long and bit complicated story:

 Panini’s doubling of ch-  and cases like icchati ,gacchati. pṛcchati all go back to Indo-European *sk’
as in chāyā/shadow, Dutch schaduw {pronounced  s-kh) or Latin posco = pṛcha-

This RV WRITES only ch in gachati but the meter shows that it is a double consonant. Which?

[[[(there are 2 cases of -khkh- in RV, trying to remember. Maybe just a fluke of Maharastrian spelling)See below.]]]

Kaṭha Samhita (and Kashmir spelling in general) seem to have preserved the old pronunciation; they write : gaśchati etc. (Kerala has -cs- I believe) (See my Veda InKashmir)

This shows why chāyā etc.  has double consonant (cch in Panini’s area?) in Sandhi as per Panini.

So Whitney’s Roots  with ichati reflects the RV spelling.

You can also check in the  first volume of Wackernagel, Altindische Grammatik (1895) with some data.

Hope this mess is cleared up a bit.

========= on khkh: in our SARVA Dictionary:http://www.aa.tufs.ac.jp/sarva/entrance.html<https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.aa.tufs.ac.jp/sarva/entrance.html__;!!DZ3fjg!-kdMjLZ466rdTxofJZnInPqpwnwinb6oZIxkeYpyhmgBFJpjWVtSFZz_mRVrwUcSBA2nvxvYZprzJIGERkYiSD94Re7L$>

 RV akhkhalī-(kṛ'tyā), 'the sound of frogs in the rainy season', which Thieme, Kleine Schriften 138, takes as 'producing syllables (akṣara)', see M. Mayrhofer, Etymologisches Wörterbuch des Altindorarischen, 1986: 44. -- However, note K. Hoffmann, Aufsätze zur Indoiranistik, 1975: 176 who takes it as an interjection. Note also that the sound combination -khkh- is not allowed in Indo-Aryan. The old RV word therefore represents an onomatopetic imitation of frogs that has survived, like many other onomatopoetica (see bal-bal) without the expected sound changes from Vedic to Modern IA

On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 12:10 PM Agnes Korn <agnes.korn at cnrs.fr<mailto:agnes.korn at cnrs.fr>> wrote:

Dear all,

If I remember correctly, there are different manuscriptal etc. traditions as for the notation of "ch" or "cch / chch". As there is no opposition of ch or cch, one can write one or the other. Whitney perhaps chose "ch" for brevity.

As ch / cch / chch makes the syllable heavy (i.e. is treated like a consonant group), a notation "cch / chch" is clearer than ch, but of course the well-versed know that "ch" counts as a consonant group ;-)

Best wishes,
Agnes

Le 18.10.2023 à 05:39, alakendu das via INDOLOGY a écrit :
Mr. Spier,

I can cite an instance . We take the word"ICCHA" ( wish or desire).
Here, we have doubling of "Ch" after a short or long vowel .

Regards
Alakendu Das.

From: indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>
Sent: Wed, 18 Oct 2023 06:56:35
To: indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>
Subject: [INDOLOGY] Whitney and doubling of "ch"

Dear list members,
Whitney  in his grammar section 227 says about the doubling of "ch".
"As a general rule ch is not to be allowed by the grammarians to stand in that form after vowels but is to be doubled becoming cch (which in the manuscripts is sometimes written chch). . .According to Panini ch is to be doubled within a word after a long or a short vowel."

But if you look in his "Roots, Verb-forms and Derivatives" at the entry  for iṣ, ich  nowhere does he double "ch" not even after a short vowel rather he has ichati, ichaka,  ichā and ichu  . Does anyone know why for this root in all his examples he didn't double ch after vowels?
Thanks,
Harry Spier

--
Agnes Korn, PhD habil.
CNRS ; UMR 8041 Centre de recherche sur le monde iranien (CeRMI)
**new address**:
7 rue Guy Môquet
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