[INDOLOGY] Whitney and doubling of "ch"

Madhav Deshpande mmdesh at umich.edu
Wed Oct 18 20:33:19 UTC 2023

At least, this manuscript seems to write गछति and अछा, for what would
normally be read as गच्छति and अच्छा.
[image: image.png]

But there is likely to be variation among the manuscripts.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 1:22 PM Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> My 2¢ worth:
> Whatever the motivation may be for the spelling with a single <ch> in the
> Rig Veda (and let’s keep in mind that the “real” Rig Veda is oral), the
> syllable preceding <ch> in forms like *gachati *‘goes’ is heavy, not
> light, indicating that we are dealing with cluster or geminate ([cch] or
> the like); compare RV 1.1.4c *sá íd devéṣu gachati* in an iambic cadence.
> Has anybody looked at old MSS of the Rig Veda to see whether in indigenous
> scripts forms like *ga(c)chati* are written with छ or with च्छ (or their
> equivalents)?
> All the best,
> Hans Henrich
> On Oct 18, 2023, at 15:06, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> Thank you everybody.  This was sent to me by Michael Witzel and I don't
> think he would mind if I share it.
> a long and bit complicated story:
>  Panini’s doubling of ch-  and cases like icchati ,gacchati. pṛcchati all
> go back to Indo-European *sk’
> as in chāyā/shadow, Dutch schaduw {pronounced  s-kh) or Latin posco =
> pṛcha-
> This RV WRITES only ch in gachati but the meter shows that it is a double
> consonant. Which?
> [[[(there are 2 cases of -khkh- in RV, trying to remember. Maybe just a
> fluke of Maharastrian spelling)See below.]]]
> Kaṭha Samhita (and Kashmir spelling in general) seem to have preserved the
> old pronunciation; they write : gaśchati etc. (Kerala has -cs- I believe)
> (See my Veda InKashmir)
> This shows why chāyā etc.  has double consonant (cch in Panini’s area?) in
> Sandhi as per Panini.
> So Whitney’s Roots  with ichati reflects the RV spelling.
> You can also check in the  first volume of Wackernagel, Altindische
> Grammatik (1895) with some data.
> Hope this mess is cleared up a bit.
> ========= on khkh: in our SARVA Dictionary:
> http://www.aa.tufs.ac.jp/sarva/entrance.html
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.aa.tufs.ac.jp/sarva/entrance.html__;!!DZ3fjg!-kdMjLZ466rdTxofJZnInPqpwnwinb6oZIxkeYpyhmgBFJpjWVtSFZz_mRVrwUcSBA2nvxvYZprzJIGERkYiSD94Re7L$>
>  RV akhkhalī-(kṛ'tyā), 'the sound of frogs in the rainy season', which
> Thieme, Kleine Schriften 138, takes as 'producing syllables (akṣara)', see
> M. Mayrhofer, Etymologisches Wörterbuch des Altindorarischen, 1986: 44. --
> However, note K. Hoffmann, Aufsätze zur Indoiranistik, 1975: 176 who takes
> it as an interjection. Note also that the sound combination -khkh- is not
> allowed in Indo-Aryan. The old RV word therefore represents an onomatopetic
> imitation of frogs that has survived, like many other onomatopoetica (see
> bal-bal) without the expected sound changes from Vedic to Modern IA
> On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 12:10 PM Agnes Korn <agnes.korn at cnrs.fr> wrote:
>> Dear all,
>> If I remember correctly, there are different manuscriptal etc. traditions
>> as for the notation of "ch" or "cch / chch". As there is no opposition of
>> ch or cch, one can write one or the other. Whitney perhaps chose "ch" for
>> brevity.
>> As ch / cch / chch makes the syllable heavy (i.e. is treated like a
>> consonant group), a notation "cch / chch" is clearer than ch, but of course
>> the well-versed know that "ch" counts as a consonant group ;-)
>> Best wishes,
>> Agnes
>> Le 18.10.2023 à 05:39, alakendu das via INDOLOGY a écrit :
>> Mr. Spier,
>> I can cite an instance . We take the word"*ICCHA" *( wish or desire).
>> Here, we have doubling of "*Ch" *after a short or long vowel .
>> Regards
>> Alakendu Das.
>> From: indology at list.indology.info
>> Sent: Wed, 18 Oct 2023 06:56:35
>> To: indology at list.indology.info
>> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Whitney and doubling of "ch"
>> Dear list members,
>> Whitney  in his grammar section 227 says about the doubling of "*ch*".
>> "As a general rule *ch* is not to be allowed by the grammarians to stand
>> in that form after vowels but is to be doubled becoming *cch* (which in
>> the manuscripts is sometimes written *chch*). . .According to Panini *ch*
>> is to be doubled within a word after a long or a short vowel."
>> But if you look in his "Roots, Verb-forms and Derivatives" at the entry
>> for *iṣ, ich * nowhere does he double "*ch*" not even after a short
>> vowel rather he has* i**chati, ichaka,* * ichā* and* ichu * . Does
>> anyone know why for this root in all his examples he didn't double *ch*
>> after vowels?
>> Thanks,
>> Harry Spier
>> --
>> Agnes Korn, PhD habil.
>> CNRS ; UMR 8041 Centre de recherche sur le monde iranien (CeRMI)
>> **new address**:
>> 7 rue Guy Môquet
>> 94800 Villejuif
>> France
>> agnes.korn at cnrs.frhttps://cermi.cnrs.fr/membres/korn-agnes/ <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cermi.cnrs.fr/membres/korn-agnes/__;!!DZ3fjg!-kdMjLZ466rdTxofJZnInPqpwnwinb6oZIxkeYpyhmgBFJpjWVtSFZz_mRVrwUcSBA2nvxvYZprzJIGERkYiSD5QgTX7$>
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