[INDOLOGY] Whitney and doubling of "ch"

Wed Oct 18 20:38:42 UTC 2023

Max Müller has in his editions (London 1849 and Leipzig 1856) in 1.1.4c 
gacchati.

L.

On 18.10.2023 22:22, Hock, Hans Henrich via INDOLOGY wrote:
> My 2¢ worth:
> 
> Whatever the motivation may be for the spelling with a single <ch> in 
> the Rig Veda (and let’s keep in mind that the “real” Rig Veda is oral), 
> the syllable preceding <ch> in forms like /gachati /‘goes’ is heavy, not 
> light, indicating that we are dealing with cluster or geminate ([cch] or 
> the like); compare RV 1.1.4c /sá íd devéṣu gachati/ in an iambic 
> cadence. Has anybody looked at old MSS of the Rig Veda to see whether in 
> indigenous scripts forms like /ga(c)chati/ are written with छ or with च्छ 
> (or their equivalents)?
> 
> All the best,
> 
> Hans Henrich
> 
>> On Oct 18, 2023, at 15:06, Harry Spier via INDOLOGY 
>> <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>> Thank you everybody.  This was sent to me by Michael Witzel and I 
>> don't think he would mind if I share it.
>>
>> a long and bit complicated story:
>>
>>  Panini’s doubling of ch-  and cases like icchati ,gacchati. pṛcchati 
>> all go back to Indo-European *sk’
>> as in chāyā/shadow, Dutch schaduw {pronounced  s-kh) or Latin posco = 
>> pṛcha-
>>
>> This RV WRITES only ch in gachati but the meter shows that it is a 
>> double consonant. Which?
>>
>> [[[(there are 2 cases of -khkh- in RV, trying to remember. Maybe just 
>> a fluke of Maharastrian spelling)See below.]]]
>>
>> Kaṭha Samhita (and Kashmir spelling in general) seem to have preserved 
>> the old pronunciation; they write : gaśchati etc. (Kerala has -cs- I 
>> believe) (See my Veda InKashmir)
>>
>> This shows why chāyā etc.  has double consonant (cch in Panini’s 
>> area?) in Sandhi as per Panini.
>>
>> So Whitney’s Roots  with ichati reflects the RV spelling.
>>
>> You can also check in the  first volume of Wackernagel, Altindische 
>> Grammatik (1895) with some data.
>>
>> Hope this mess is cleared up a bit.
>>
>> ========= on khkh: in our SARVA 
>> Dictionary:http://www.aa.tufs.ac.jp/sarva/entrance.html 
>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.aa.tufs.ac.jp/sarva/entrance.html__;!!DZ3fjg!-kdMjLZ466rdTxofJZnInPqpwnwinb6oZIxkeYpyhmgBFJpjWVtSFZz_mRVrwUcSBA2nvxvYZprzJIGERkYiSD94Re7L$>
>>
>>  RV akhkhalī-(kṛ'tyā), 'the sound of frogs in the rainy season', which 
>> Thieme, Kleine Schriften 138, takes as 'producing syllables (akṣara)', 
>> see M. Mayrhofer, Etymologisches Wörterbuch des Altindorarischen, 
>> 1986: 44. -- However, note K. Hoffmann, Aufsätze zur Indoiranistik, 
>> 1975: 176 who takes it as an interjection. Note also that the sound 
>> combination -khkh- is not allowed in Indo-Aryan. The old RV word 
>> therefore represents an onomatopetic imitation of frogs that has 
>> survived, like many other onomatopoetica (see bal-bal) without the 
>> expected sound changes from Vedic to Modern IA
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 18, 2023 at 12:10 PM Agnes Korn <agnes.korn at cnrs.fr 
>> <mailto:agnes.korn at cnrs.fr>> wrote:
>>
>>     __
>>
>>     Dear all,
>>
>>     If I remember correctly, there are different manuscriptal etc.
>>     traditions as for the notation of "ch" or "cch / chch". As there
>>     is no opposition of ch or cch, one can write one or the other.
>>     Whitney perhaps chose "ch" for brevity.
>>
>>     As ch / cch / chch makes the syllable heavy (i.e. is treated like
>>     a consonant group), a notation "cch / chch" is clearer than ch,
>>     but of course the well-versed know that "ch" counts as a consonant
>>     group ;-)
>>
>>     Best wishes,
>>     Agnes
>>
>>     Le 18.10.2023 à 05:39, alakendu das via INDOLOGY a écrit :
>>>     Mr. Spier,
>>>
>>>     I can cite an instance . We take the word"/ICCHA" /( wish or desire).
>>>     Here, we have doubling of "/Ch" /after a short or long vowel .
>>>
>>>     Regards
>>>     Alakendu Das.
>>>
>>>     From: indology at list.indology.info
>>>     <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>
>>>     Sent: Wed, 18 Oct 2023 06:56:35
>>>     To: indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>
>>>     Subject: [INDOLOGY] Whitney and doubling of "ch"
>>>
>>>
>>>     Dear list members,
>>>     Whitney  in his grammar section 227 says about the doubling of
>>>     "*ch*".
>>>     "As a general rule *ch* is not to be allowed by the grammarians
>>>     to stand in that form after vowels but is to be doubled becoming
>>>     *cch* (which in the manuscripts is sometimes written *chch*). .
>>>     .According to Panini *ch* is to be doubled within a word after a
>>>     long or a short vowel."
>>>
>>>     But if you look in his "Roots, Verb-forms and Derivatives" at the
>>>     entry  for *iṣ, ich * nowhere does he double "*ch*" not even
>>>     after a short vowel rather he has*i**chati, ichaka,*
>>>     * ichā* and*ichu * . Does anyone know why for this root in all
>>>     his examples he didn't double *ch* after vowels?
>>>     Thanks,
>>>     Harry Spier
>>     -- 
>>     Agnes Korn, PhD habil.
>>     CNRS ; UMR 8041 Centre de recherche sur le monde iranien (CeRMI)
>>     **new address**:
>>     7 rue Guy Môquet
>>     94800 Villejuif
>>     France
>>
>>     agnes.korn at cnrs.fr  <mailto:agnes.korn at cnrs.fr>
>>     https://cermi.cnrs.fr/membres/korn-agnes/  <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://cermi.cnrs.fr/membres/korn-agnes/__;!!DZ3fjg!-kdMjLZ466rdTxofJZnInPqpwnwinb6oZIxkeYpyhmgBFJpjWVtSFZz_mRVrwUcSBA2nvxvYZprzJIGERkYiSD5QgTX7$>
>>
>>
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