[INDOLOGY] ळ in south Indian grantha sanskrit manuscripts

Charles Li cchli at cantab.net
Fri Mar 24 16:22:15 UTC 2023 

Thanks to everyone for the replies so far! The thought that the 
Devanagari scribe might be writing the vocalic ऌ with an "ū" sign is 
pretty interesting, I didn't think of that! I'd be curious to know if 
anyone has seen the consonant ḷa (ള/ள/ಳ) written as a vocalic ऌ.

On RE33635, I also thought it was a weird Malayalam script at first, but 
the IFP catalogue describes it as Tigalari. In case anyone is 
interested, images of the full manuscript are available grace à l'IFP, 
from their manuscripts database: 
https://www.ifpindia.org/digitaldb/online/manuscripts/

On IO SAN 1758, and on the text in general, which might be called the 
Karnāṭakapriya[vyākhyāna] of Lakṣmaṇaśāstrī, Colebrooke's catalogue 
entry transcribes the author's verses at the beginning: 
https://archive.org/details/p1a4catalogueofs01greauoft/page/276/mode/1up

Best,

Charles

On 2023-03-24 16:18, Christophe Vielle wrote:
> Thank you dear Charles for this example (of a Kannada text in 
> Tigalari/Tuḷu – very close indeed to Malāyaḷam script — " Āryeḻuttu" 
> script family I would say, versus Kōleḻuttu and Maḷayāṇma  scripts 
> belonging to the [recent] "Vaṭṭeḻuttu" family of the south-western 
> coast) with the retroflex rendered by a special sign in Devanagari: 
>  linguistic reasons (?) for not normalizing it in -l-; anyway I never 
> saw that before.
> Best wishes,
> Christophe
>
>> Le 24 mars 2023 à 14:48, Anna Aurelia Esposito 
>> <anna.esposito at uni-wuerzburg.de> a écrit :
>>
>> Dear Charles,
>> the second photo is Malayalam, not Kannada.
>> Best wishes,
>> Anna
>>
>>
>> Zitat von Charles Li via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:
>>
>>> Hi everyone,
>>>
>>> Since we're on the topic of Kannada and the retroflex ḷ, I was 
>>> wondering if anyone has seen this weird Devanagari sign for "ḷa". 
>>> I'm attaching two photos of the same passage from a Kannada 
>>> commentary on the Amarakoṣa, the first one in Devanagari script 
>>> (British Library IO SAN 1758), and the second in Tigalari (IFP 
>>> RE33635). The passage reads:
>>>
>>>   guṇāḥ | guṇagaḷū |
>>>
>>> As seen in RE33635, the last character is "ḷū". But Devanagari 
>>> scribe consistently uses a funny sign, a kind of ल with an extra 
>>> hook, to transcribe this. Has anyone seen this anywhere else?
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Charles
>>>
>>> On 2023-03-24 14:18, Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY wrote:
>>>> Dear all,
>>>>
>>>> In Kannada, too, Sanskrit words are often written with a retroflex 
>>>> ḷ (ಳ = ळ) where we might have expected l (ಲ = ल). The retroflex ḷ 
>>>> in Sanskrit words is called by the name kṣaḷa (ಕ್ಷಳ) in Kēśava's 
>>>> Śabdamaṇidarpaṇam (1260 CE). Kēśava (or Kēśirāja, as he is also 
>>>> known) distinguishes this sound from the retroflex ḷ found in 
>>>> Kannada words, called kuḷa (ಕುಳ), which is however written with 
>>>> exactly the same letter (ಳ). Kēśava further notes that the kṣaḷa 
>>>> and kuḷa (ಳ = ळ) can serve as equivalents for the sake of prāsa 
>>>> (second-letter alliteration), whereas the dental l (ಲ = ल) cannot 
>>>> alternate with either of them.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know precisely (a) why Kēśirāja felt it necessary to 
>>>> distinguish between the Sanskrit and Kannada retroflex ḷ; and (b) 
>>>> why the retroflex ḷ (kṣaḷa) occurs optionally in some Sanskrit 
>>>> words, in some positions, and not in others. Kittel in his /Grammar 
>>>> of the Kannada Language /pp. 14–15 
>>>> <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Farchive.org%2Fdetails%2Fin.gov.ignca.23505%2Fpage%2F13%2Fmode%2F2up&data=05%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C010a2a6d1d9d4e0580d308db2c6e822f%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C638152625371200345%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=6zP26X299xcrvTg1G1m8T5R8faN8G0JB6cZjXMApo8M%3D&reserved=0 
>>>> <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Farchive.org%2Fdetails%2Fin.gov.ignca.23505%2Fpage%2F13%2Fmode%2F2up&data=05%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C010a2a6d1d9d4e0580d308db2c6e822f%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C638152625371200345%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=6zP26X299xcrvTg1G1m8T5R8faN8G0JB6cZjXMApo8M%3D&reserved=0>>, §30, 
>>>> says: “It is often used by Kannaḍa people as a substitute for the 
>>>> Saṁskṛita ಲ (= ल), the sound of which in the Saṁskṛita language 
>>>> apparently bears a dubious character for them, one that is neither 
>>>> their ಲ (= ल) nor their ಳ (= ळ); this ಳ (= ळ) is Kêšava’s kṣaḷa.” I 
>>>> interpret this to mean: whereas Kannada clearly distinguishes a 
>>>> dental and retroflex lateral, Sanskrit does not, and the Sanskrit 
>>>> lateral is pronounced somewhere between a dental and retroflex 
>>>> position (kind of like the "dental" stops in most kinds of American 
>>>> English), with some phonotactically-conditioned variation within 
>>>> this range. The exact conditions of this variation remain a little 
>>>> obscure, but Kēśava does after all call the consonant kṣaḷa, which 
>>>> suggests that the retroflexion is found (among other places) in 
>>>> those same contexts where dental n is retroflexed to ṇ. 
>>>> Christophe's observation that retroflex ḷ is not used 
>>>> word-initially accords with my impression of Kannada usage.
>>>>
>>>> Andrew
>>>>
>>>> On Fri, Mar 24, 2023 at 5:08 AM Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY 
>>>> <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>   I was in course of stating more or less the same as Anna Aurelia
>>>>   about the Malayalam script manuscripts, observing the regularity
>>>>   of the use of the retroflex for peculiar words, which, I would
>>>>   add, usually preserve this peculiarity in their
>>>>   borrowing/inclusion within Malayalam language. The retroflex is
>>>>   systematically replaced by -l- in the Devanagari manuscripts which
>>>>   are transcripts of Malayalam script mss., with the problem that
>>>>   this retroflex can in fact also sometime be used for -ḍ- (see
>>>>   below /jaḷa/ for /jaḍa/ etc.).
>>>>   Contrasting examples are /viḷambita/ (cf. /viḷambase/ in
>>>>   Esposito's post) with a "forced" intervocalic -l-  > -ḷ- after a
>>>>   prefixe (/lamb- /alone being written with l-),
>>>>   versus///vilo//ḷita/ keeping the initial -l- of the theme after
>>>>   the prefixe. A more complete listing of the forms of the concerned
>>>>   words (from the apparatus in crit. ed. mentioning them) should be
>>>>   made for drawing linguistic conclusions. The references of Philipp
>>>>   Maas are useful in this respect.
>>>>
>>>>   A few samples from a text in course of edition
>>>>
>>>>   vilolita : viloḷita
>>>>   kuntala : kuntaḷa
>>>>   lalita : laḷita
>>>>   pulinā : puḷinā
>>>>   milatpulakakuḍmalaṃ : miḷatpuḷakakuḍmaḷaṃ
>>>>   valakṣagu : vaḷakṣagu
>>>>   kalakala : kaḷakaḷa
>>>>   alinda : aḷinda
>>>>   gala : gaḷa
>>>>   antarāla : antarāḷa
>>>>   pacelima : paceḷima
>>>>   bahala : bahaḷa
>>>>   gadula : gaduḷa
>>>>   nalina : naḷina
>>>>   bakula : bakuḷa
>>>>
>>>>   vilambita : viḷambita
>>>>
>>>>   jaḍa : jaḷa
>>>>
>>>>   From a purāṇa text:
>>>>
>>>>   /pātāla /:///pātāḷa/
>>>>   /śālin- /: /ṣāḷin//-/
>>>>   /tolikā /: /toḷikā/
>>>>   /argala-/: /arggaḷa-/
>>>>   /vyāla/- : /vyāḷa/-
>>>>   /bala- / : /vaḷa-/
>>>>   /karāla- /:///karāḷa-/
>>>>   /pralaya- /: /praḷaya-/
>>>>   /dhūli/- : /dhūḷi/-
>>>>   /alakā- : //aḷakā-/
>>>>
>>>>   /-viluḍī/- : -/viluḷī/-
>>>>   -/jaḍī/- : -/jaḷī/-
>>>>   /-vrīḍam /: /-vrīḷam/
>>>>   /kṣveḍita-/ : /kṣveḷita-/
>>>>   /thuḍa- /:///thuḷa/-
>>>>   /huḍa- / : / huḷa-/
>>>>
>>>>>   Le 24 mars 2023 à 09:29, Anna Aurelia Esposito
>>>>>   <anna.esposito at uni-wuerzburg.de> a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>>   Dear Harry Spier,
>>>>>   I found the same in drama manuscripts written in Malayāḷam
>>>>>   script. In particular Sanskrit words intervocalic l is replaced
>>>>>   by ḷ. This usage persevers not only in all manuscripts, but also
>>>>>   in the editions printed in Malayāḷam script (see e.g. the
>>>>>   edition of the “Trivandrum Plays” ascribed to Bhasa of Bhāskaran,
>>>>>   1987).
>>>>>
>>>>>   In Cārudatta ascribed to Bhāsa we find for example ḷ in I.2a
>>>>>   dehaḷīnām, I.13b bahaḷa-, I.13b -kāḷā-, I.26.38 viḷambase, III.8b
>>>>>   karāḷo, III.10b -kākaḷīṣu, III.12d nīḷa-, in Dūtavākya -kaḷaṅka-
>>>>>   35.1, -praḷaya- 47c and *49c, -laḷitā- *47a.
>>>>>
>>>>>   So far, no one has been able to explain to me why the l has been
>>>>>   changed to ḷ in these words, and consistently in every manuscript
>>>>>   (and also in the printed edition). A possible explanation would
>>>>>   be, as you suggest, that one scribe read the text and the other
>>>>>   wrote it; but in some cases it is evident from the errors in the
>>>>>   manuscripts that the text was copied and not written down by
>>>>>   hearing. I am curious if someone from the list can give us an
>>>>>   explanation.
>>>>>
>>>>>   Best wishes,
>>>>>   Anna Esposito
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   Zitat von Harry Spier via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:
>>>>>
>>>>>>   Dear list members,
>>>>>>   I'm looking at the devanagari transcription of a south indian
>>>>>>   grantha
>>>>>>   manuscript.  most consonent l's are the classical sanskrit l
>>>>>>   i.e. ल but
>>>>>>   some words have the letter, ळ .
>>>>>>   Some examples are:
>>>>>>   प्रक्षाळ्य
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   नाळिकेरोद्भवंपादौप्रक्षाळ्याचम्यमुकुळीकृतियपिण्गळायवामांघ्र्यब्जदळासह्रिताम्अण्गुळ्यग्रेणशुद्धविद्यातत्वव्याप्तसर्वमणळोपेतं
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   I'm pretty sure this isn't from typist misprints because प्रक्षाळ्य
>>>>>>   occcurs many times always spelled with ळ
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Any explanations would be appreciated. My understanding is that
>>>>>>   sometimes
>>>>>>   manuscripts were created by one scribe speaking the text and
>>>>>>   another scribe
>>>>>>   writing what he hears.  Is that a possible explanation for the
>>>>>>   occurance of
>>>>>>   this letter ळ .  I.e. local pronounciation creeping in.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>   Thanks,
>>>>>>   Harry Spier
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>   **********
>>>>>   PD Dr. Anna Aurelia Esposito
>>>>>   **********
>>>>>   Universität Würzburg
>>>>>   Lehrstuhl für Indologie
>>>>>   Philosophiegebäude, Zi. 8U6
>>>>>   Am Hubland
>>>>>   97074 Würzburg
>>>>>   Germany
>>>>>   Tel: ++49-(0)931-3185512
>>>>>   **********
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>>>>>   <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.phil.uni-wuerzburg.de%2Findologie%2Fmitarbeiter%2Fesposito%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C010a2a6d1d9d4e0580d308db2c6e822f%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C638152625371200345%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=71Yko50kkWyxZQ%2Bqv5ECC9FPyA8QDSCDIvHBrITF2PI%3D&reserved=0 
>>>>> <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.phil.uni-wuerzburg.de%2Findologie%2Fmitarbeiter%2Fesposito%2F&data=05%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C010a2a6d1d9d4e0580d308db2c6e822f%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C638152625371200345%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=71Yko50kkWyxZQ%2Bqv5ECC9FPyA8QDSCDIvHBrITF2PI%3D&reserved=0>>
>>>>>   **********
>>>>>
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>>>>> <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flist.indology.info%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Findology&data=05%7C01%7Cchristophe.vielle%40uclouvain.be%7C010a2a6d1d9d4e0580d308db2c6e822f%7C7ab090d4fa2e4ecfbc7c4127b4d582ec%7C0%7C0%7C638152625371200345%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=IYydJH0XyOlmSH8nUzKRg7%2BkfMrtBozWJ%2FKEVUtl35E%3D&reserved=0>>
>>>>
>>>>   –––––––––––––––––––
>>>>   Christophe Vielle
>>>>   <https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
>>>>   Louvain-la-Neuve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>   _______________________________________________
>>>>   INDOLOGY mailing list
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>>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> **********
>> PD Dr. Anna Aurelia Esposito
>> **********
>> Universität Würzburg
>> Lehrstuhl für Indologie
>> Philosophiegebäude, Zi. 8U6
>> Am Hubland
>> 97074 Würzburg
>> Germany
>> Tel: ++49-(0)931-3185512
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> Christophe Vielle <https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
> Louvain-la-Neuve
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