[INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria

Fri Oct 12 22:15:55 UTC 2018

Dear Joanna and list members,

I apologize for being slow to respond.  I have come down with the flu.  My
body aches all over and I am unable to move around easily.  It will
probably take me a few days to get pdfs to you all.

Thanks in advance for your patience.

George

On Thu, Oct 11, 2018 at 6:11 AM Joanna Jurewicz <j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl>
wrote:

> Dear George,
>
> I am also waiting for your paper. Please, do find it!
>
> I would also like to say that I have analysed the problem of Soma in my
> "Fire and cognition in the Rgveda" (2010). I have not tried to decide its
> botanical identification, but I have analysed how this concept was used by
> the Rgvedic poets (on the basis of the experience which is attested in the
> RV) in their philosophical (yes, I dare to use this word) investigation.
> The work of George was very useful for me.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Joanna
>
> ---
> Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz
> Katedra Azji Południowej /Chair of South Asia
> Wydział Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
> Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
> ul. Krakowskie Przedmieście 26/28
> 00-927 Warszawa
> https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz
>
>
> śr., 10 paź 2018 o 23:33 Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> napisał(a):
>
>> Dear George,
>> Please do make available pdfs of your contributions which I find always
>> enriching, stimulating and well-considered, even if I do not always agree
>> in all respects.
>> And it is always handy to have pdfs even if the paper is in a physical
>> book at home and/or in a library.
>> Best regards,
>> Jan
>>
>>
>> On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 23:12, George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear List,
>>>
>>> Regarding Soma, maybe  it would be useful to cite a Soma hymn.  I would
>>> recommend RV 10.119, which I have translated and discussed and published in
>>> several places.  I have been looking for a pdf file to send to the list but
>>> I cannot find one right now.  In the meantime, it can be found in my paper
>>> in the Frits Staal memorial volume and also in my EJVS paper already
>>> cited.  If folks are having trouble finding these papers, I will try to
>>> convert them to pdf files so that they can be sent by email.
>>>
>>> Obviously, I like talking about Soma.  By the way, I was asked a number
>>> of years ago to write a paper on Soma for a popular yoga journal here in
>>> the US "Naamaruupa:Categories of Indian Thought"  [April 2007].  This was
>>> written for non-specialists in Vedic and is more accessible than my
>>> scholarly papers.
>>>
>>> George
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 3:47 PM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Nagaraj-ji,
>>>> To my disappointment I see that the scholars to whom you refer quote
>>>> the Rgveda without giving the accent although it is an
>>>> indispensable feature for determining the precise meaning of a mantra; a
>>>> feature, moreover, which Paanini and the Praatisaakhya authors took so much
>>>> trouble to describe in detail and which has been studied with much critical
>>>> acumen by modern scholars such as Oldenberg, Thieme, Palsule, etc. (for
>>>> excellent Vedic scholars I do not distinguish between "western" and
>>>> "indic", at the most between "modern" and "traditional").
>>>> The basic necessity to take into account accent should apply also, and,
>>>> I hope, all the more, to the new "Śāstric research methodology" you and
>>>> your colleagues are now proposing to design and develop.
>>>> I would recommend the use Gandhari Unicode which allows to type all
>>>> required accents for Sanskrit, Vedic and even for other Indo-european
>>>> languages.
>>>> For Devanagari the Nakula and Sahadeva fonts do give a basic
>>>> possibility to put the accent in Rgvedic style.
>>>> There may be other fonts for Sanskrit and Vedic in Devanagari which
>>>> allow putting accents even in a better, more detailed way including
>>>> according to the style of other Śākhās as well.
>>>> With best regards,
>>>> Jan Houben
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 20:48, Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY <
>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Shrikant Jamdagni-ji posted on another list:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Scholars,
>>>>>
>>>>> I am reproducing some passages from Collected Works of Acharya
>>>>> T.V.Kapali Sastry Vol.1 Book Of Lights.Page 62. Acharya Kapali Sastry was a
>>>>> collaborator of Sri Aurobindo in their work of reconstructing the esoteric
>>>>> or inner meaning of the RgVeda.
>>>>>
>>>>> "........ Here we may note in passing that the Soma plant is an
>>>>> extinct species and it was not easily available even thirty centuries ago.
>>>>> Twenty-four varieties of Soma plant are mentioned along with the places of
>>>>> their growth and their therapeutic virtues such as strength and longevity
>>>>> in the Sushruta Samhita (Chikitsa-sthana, Chapter 29), but the intoxicating
>>>>> property is not mentioned"
>>>>>
>>>>> "...And some Riks cannot be properly construed at all if the Soma is
>>>>> taken to mean the drug. What are we to say when the Veda plainly hymns "O
>>>>> Thou, all-seeing, the illuminating rays of thee, who art the lord,
>>>>> encompass all the abodes;Soma, with thy natural powers thou pervadest (the
>>>>> all) and flowest, thou art the king and ord of the whole world" ? (RgVeda
>>>>> 9.86.5).
>>>>> Another Rik openly decides the question of Soma. "When they crush the
>>>>> herb, one thinks that he has drunk the Soma; but no one ever tastes him
>>>>> whom the Brahmans know to be the Soma" (RgVeda 10.85.3)
>>>>>
>>>>> regards
>>>>>
>>>>> Shrikant Jamadagni
>>>>> Bangalore
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>>
>>>>> On the same list,
>>>>>
>>>>> Subodh Kumar-ji wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Soma: What it is and what it does
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Monier Williams (in his great Sanskrit English Dictionary)  interprets
>>>>> SOMA only at physical level  as a -juice, extract,(esp.)the juice of
>>>>> Soma plant, (also) the Soma plant itself,(said to be a climbing plant) the
>>>>> stalks, an  अंशु  anshu of which  is pressed between stones by the
>>>>> priests, then sprinkled with water , and purified in a strainer to get
>>>>> Soma.  Anshu अंशु however is translated by MW  as  a
>>>>> filament(especially of Soma plant);thread; end of a thread, a minute
>>>>> particle; a point, end;..
>>>>>
>>>>> ....... There is an obvious incongruity in this interpretation of
>>>>> Soma. It will be physically a difficult / impractical task to press the
>>>>> thread, end of thread, a minute particle, a point of Soma plant. The entire
>>>>> concept of an  already minute particle, to be pressed between stones,
>>>>> sprinkled with water and purified in a strainer is more in the realm of an
>>>>> imagined process and not physically feasible .
>>>>>
>>>>> In fact Dr Nene beautifully describes the human anotomical process by
>>>>> which human brain processes all information as if crushing on stones and
>>>>> then sifts the findings for concusive decision to arrive at final wisdom.
>>>>> That is Soma. Dr Nene actually describes the physical features in human
>>>>> anatomy that work like two stones to press by and then a seive of wool like
>>>>> structure throgh which the pressed substance is actually strained in
>>>>> processing of information by human brain.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Thus  in popular perception SOMA is  a kind of  herbal preparation,
>>>>> which is consumed for exhilarating/ stimulating  benefits.  But  Soma
>>>>> is a lot more than a mere stimulating herbal  concoction. The entire 9
>>>>> th  chapter Mandal on Pavmani Soma of Rig Veda appears to have
>>>>> escaped notice of MW in giving this highly limiting interpretation of Soma.
>>>>> Pavmani Soma signifies a  non physical  entity  that provides the
>>>>> stimulant for physical action for welfare and benefit of entire creation.
>>>>>
>>>>> Vedic Soma
>>>>>
>>>>> सोमेनादित्या बलिन: सोमेना पृथिवी मही !
>>>>>
>>>>> अथो नक्षत्राणामेषामुपस्थे सोम आहित: !! ऋग्वेद 10/85/2
>>>>>
>>>>> Solar radiations, the greatness of earth and all the planets in the
>>>>> sky that support life, derive their abilities from the SOMA that is
>>>>> established in them.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> सोमं मन्यते पपिवान्यत्संपिंषंत्योषधिम् !
>>>>>
>>>>> सोमं यं ब्रह्माणो विदुर्न तस्याश्नाति कश्चन !! ऋग्वेद 10/85/3
>>>>>
>>>>>  Yask translates this mantra by saying-" Some chemists crush soma and
>>>>> then drink it , and think that they have drunk soma. This is not correct,
>>>>> because that is not true soma."
>>>>>
>>>>> But The Soma that Learned, Scientists, Intellectuals, know of is not
>>>>> an edible product.
>>>>>
>>>>> आच्छद्विधानैर्गुपितो बार्हते सोम रक्षित: !
>>>>>
>>>>> ग्राव्णामिच्छृएवन्तिष्ठसि नते अश्नाति पार्थिव: !! ऋग्वेद 10/85/4
>>>>>
>>>>> It is covered and protected by well regulated non material  laws  governing
>>>>> in the material world .
>>>>>
>>>>> Soma can not be physically consumed by a living being*.*
>>>>>
>>>>> * -.....     .......   .......  *
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *......    ......  .........*
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 9:33 PM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks to everyone for alerting me also offline to the missing
>>>>>> picture!
>>>>>> Meanwhile I had to realize that others who had explored the secret
>>>>>> Himalayan Soma vendor cave (after me), made haste to publish it (before I
>>>>>> could), failing however to decipher and translate the inscriptional
>>>>>> caption. Anyhow, for those interested in the pre-Śrauta early Aryan Soma
>>>>>> trade, here is the link for further research:
>>>>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zwerg_Postkarte_001.jpg
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>>> WS
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 17:48 Uhr schrieb Madhav Deshpande <
>>>>>> mmdesh at umich.edu>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Walter,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      This sounds exciting.  The png file you attached is not opening
>>>>>>> for some reason.  Could you please send it again in a readable format.
>>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Madhav
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>>>>>>> Professor Emeritus
>>>>>>> Sanskrit and Linguistics
>>>>>>> University of Michigan
>>>>>>> [Residence: Campbell, California]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 7:33 AM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> An approximately 4000+ years old wall painting recently retrieved
>>>>>>>> from a western Himalayan cave will solve the disputed matter unless and
>>>>>>>> until the ephedra party succeeds in producing comparably firm
>>>>>>>> counterevidence:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [image: grafik.png]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The Soma vendors left a caption below the painting:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> “*Aṃśu* of only the finest quality being carried down the slopes
>>>>>>>> by a satisfied Āryan customer with his personal cart. Please note his
>>>>>>>> thrill of anticipation and replenish your stocks at your trusted dealers from
>>>>>>>> Mount Mūjavant !”
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> pīyatām, svastaye!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> WS
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 11:44 Uhr schrieb rainer stuhrmann via
>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To answer to Prof. Houben long statement, skipping future
>>>>>>>>> experiments
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> that can prove everything and nothing:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Main problem with Ephedra is: it does not fit at all
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1. the Rigvedic ritual, for a detailed discussion of that see my
>>>>>>>>> article, p.22ff, p.31 (btw. nothing is said in the RV
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> about “sprinkling” the Soma),
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 2. Somas colours which refer to the pressed juice, see p. 31-38
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 3.  the effects described by the poets, see p.44-71
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> whereas Amanita muscaria does in all respects.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> “The main error in the argument ... by Dr. Stuhrmann and others
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> would seem to be that *all* poetic-hallucinogenic descriptions of
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> Soma plant are taken as resulting *directly and exclusively* from
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> use of a drug or psychoactive substance, whereas (1) the ritual in
>>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>>> the Soma-beverage is produced contains other, significant
>>>>>>>>>   "transformative-hallucinogenic" practices that appear as
>>>>>>>>> crucial
>>>>>>>>> already in the pre-Srauta, Rgvedic ritual; (2) from Saint
>>>>>>>>> Franciscus and
>>>>>>>>> Teresia of Avila to William Wordsworth and Apollinaire, poets
>>>>>>>>> write
>>>>>>>>> "psychedelic" or "visionary" poetry without being known to have
>>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>>> strong psychotropic substances.“
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the answer is:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (1) has not be demonstrated for the RV
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (2) is not disputed at all (see my article p.20), but the
>>>>>>>>> occurence of
>>>>>>>>> which elsewehere is of course no proof for the RV.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But if Houben argues:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> “ In addition, a lack of nutritients through fasting and thirsting
>>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>>> induce hallucinations as well. The same applies to the deprivation
>>>>>>>>> sleep. Most importantly, whether a substance or the absence of
>>>>>>>>> substances does indeed produce a hallucination will usually depend
>>>>>>>>> to a
>>>>>>>>> large
>>>>>>>>> extent on the physiological and psychological condition of the
>>>>>>>>> subject,
>>>>>>>>> whereas the nature of the hallucination or vision will depend on
>>>>>>>>> his
>>>>>>>>> psychology and cultural background.“(Houben, 2003: 3,1)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the problem here is:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the Rigveda does not tell us about “fasting and thirsting,
>>>>>>>>> deprivation
>>>>>>>>> of sleep” (Houben) etc, but the poets say very often loud and
>>>>>>>>> clear: “We
>>>>>>>>> have just drunk Soma” (see discussion of this, p. 19ff).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And that is a dried plant arriving on the ritual place, soaked in
>>>>>>>>> water,
>>>>>>>>> swelled by that process(as e.g. mushrooms do), pressed out (not
>>>>>>>>> beaten),
>>>>>>>>> giving a red to yellowish juice (as e.g. the fly-agaric does),
>>>>>>>>> mixed with milk and drunken for /máda/ “inebriation”, the
>>>>>>>>> described
>>>>>>>>> effects of which fit the optical illusionsproduced by
>>>>>>>>> hallicunogenic
>>>>>>>>> drugs (as e.g. the fly agaric and btw. also his dreaded
>>>>>>>>> side-effects,
>>>>>>>>> see pp. 49-52). For a detailed discussion of this, including
>>>>>>>>> counterarguments by Brough, Houben, Falk and others etc see my
>>>>>>>>> article
>>>>>>>>> 2006, pp 10-21 and pp 44-70 .
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Rainer Stuhrmann
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's
>>>>>>>>> managing committee)
>>>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
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>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>>
>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>>>>>
>>>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>>>
>>>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>>>
>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>>
>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>>
>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>> committee)
>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>>>>
>>>> Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>>>>
>>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>>>>
>>>> École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, PSL - Université Paris)
>>>>
>>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>>>>
>>>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 – 75005 Paris
>>>>
>>>> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*
>>>>
>>>> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>>>>
>>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>>>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> committee)
>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>
>>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>>
>> Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>>
>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>>
>> École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, PSL - Université Paris)
>>
>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>>
>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 – 75005 Paris
>>
>> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*
>>
>> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>>
>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
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>

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