Dear George,I am also waiting for your paper. Please, do find it!I would also like to say that I have analysed the problem of Soma in my "Fire and cognition in the Rgveda" (2010). I have not tried to decide its botanical identification, but I have analysed how this concept was used by the Rgvedic poets (on the basis of the experience which is attested in the RV) in their philosophical (yes, I dare to use this word) investigation. The work of George was very useful for me.Best wishes,Joanna---Prof. dr hab. Joanna JurewiczKatedra Azji Południowej /Chair of South AsiaWydział Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental StudiesUniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsawul. Krakowskie Przedmieście 26/2800-927 Warszawaśr., 10 paź 2018 o 23:33 Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> napisał(a):Dear George,Please do make available pdfs of your contributions which I find always enriching, stimulating and well-considered, even if I do not always agree in all respects.And it is always handy to have pdfs even if the paper is in a physical book at home and/or in a library.Best regards,JanOn Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 23:12, George Thompson <gthomgt@gmail.com> wrote:Dear List,Regarding Soma, maybe it would be useful to cite a Soma hymn. I would recommend RV 10.119, which I have translated and discussed and published in several places. I have been looking for a pdf file to send to the list but I cannot find one right now. In the meantime, it can be found in my paper in the Frits Staal memorial volume and also in my EJVS paper already cited. If folks are having trouble finding these papers, I will try to convert them to pdf files so that they can be sent by email.Obviously, I like talking about Soma. By the way, I was asked a number of years ago to write a paper on Soma for a popular yoga journal here in the US "Naamaruupa:Categories of Indian Thought" [April 2007]. This was written for non-specialists in Vedic and is more accessible than my scholarly papers.GeorgeOn Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 3:47 PM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> wrote:Dear Nagaraj-ji,To my disappointment I see that the scholars to whom you refer quote the Rgveda without giving the accent although it is an indispensable feature for determining the precise meaning of a mantra; a feature, moreover, which Paanini and the Praatisaakhya authors took so much trouble to describe in detail and which has been studied with much critical acumen by modern scholars such as Oldenberg, Thieme, Palsule, etc. (for excellent Vedic scholars I do not distinguish between "western" and "indic", at the most between "modern" and "traditional").The basic necessity to take into account accent should apply also, and, I hope, all the more, to the new "Śāstric research methodology" you and your colleagues are now proposing to design and develop.I would recommend the use Gandhari Unicode which allows to type all required accents for Sanskrit, Vedic and even for other Indo-european languages.For Devanagari the Nakula and Sahadeva fonts do give a basic possibility to put the accent in Rgvedic style.There may be other fonts for Sanskrit and Vedic in Devanagari which allow putting accents even in a better, more detailed way including according to the style of other Śākhās as well.With best regards,Jan HoubenOn Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 20:48, Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> wrote:Shrikant Jamdagni-ji posted on another list:
Dear Scholars,
I am reproducing some passages from Collected Works of Acharya T.V.Kapali Sastry Vol.1 Book Of Lights.Page 62. Acharya Kapali Sastry was a collaborator of Sri Aurobindo in their work of reconstructing the esoteric or inner meaning of the RgVeda.
"........ Here we may note in passing that the Soma plant is an extinct species and it was not easily available even thirty centuries ago. Twenty-four varieties of Soma plant are mentioned along with the places of their growth and their therapeutic virtues such as strength and longevity in the Sushruta Samhita (Chikitsa-sthana, Chapter 29), but the intoxicating property is not mentioned"
"...And some Riks cannot be properly construed at all if the Soma is taken to mean the drug. What are we to say when the Veda plainly hymns "O Thou, all-seeing, the illuminating rays of thee, who art the lord, encompass all the abodes;Soma, with thy natural powers thou pervadest (the all) and flowest, thou art the king and ord of the whole world" ? (RgVeda 9.86.5).
Another Rik openly decides the question of Soma. "When they crush the herb, one thinks that he has drunk the Soma; but no one ever tastes him whom the Brahmans know to be the Soma" (RgVeda 10.85.3)
regards
Shrikant Jamadagni
Bangalore
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On the same list,
Subodh Kumar-ji wrote:Soma: What it is and what it does
Monier Williams (in his great Sanskrit English Dictionary) interprets SOMA only at physical level as a -juice, extract,(esp.)the juice of Soma plant, (also) the Soma plant itself,(said to be a climbing plant) the stalks, an अंशु anshu of which is pressed between stones by the priests, then sprinkled with water , and purified in a strainer to get Soma. Anshu अंशु however is translated by MW as a filament(especially of Soma plant);thread; end of a thread, a minute particle; a point, end;..
....... There is an obvious incongruity in this interpretation of Soma. It will be physically a difficult / impractical task to press the thread, end of thread, a minute particle, a point of Soma plant. The entire concept of an already minute particle, to be pressed between stones, sprinkled with water and purified in a strainer is more in the realm of an imagined process and not physically feasible .
In fact Dr Nene beautifully describes the human anotomical process by which human brain processes all information as if crushing on stones and then sifts the findings for concusive decision to arrive at final wisdom. That is Soma. Dr Nene actually describes the physical features in human anatomy that work like two stones to press by and then a seive of wool like structure throgh which the pressed substance is actually strained in processing of information by human brain.
Thus in popular perception SOMA is a kind of herbal preparation, which is consumed for exhilarating/ stimulating benefits. But Soma is a lot more than a mere stimulating herbal concoction. The entire 9th chapter Mandal on Pavmani Soma of Rig Veda appears to have escaped notice of MW in giving this highly limiting interpretation of Soma. Pavmani Soma signifies a non physical entity that provides the stimulant for physical action for welfare and benefit of entire creation.
Vedic Soma
सोमेनादित्या बलिन: सोमेना पृथिवी मही !
अथो नक्षत्राणामेषामुपस्थे सोम आहित: !! ऋग्वेद 10/85/2
Solar radiations, the greatness of earth and all the planets in the sky that support life, derive their abilities from the SOMA that is established in them.
सोमं मन्यते पपिवान्यत्संपिंषंत्योषधिम् !
सोमं यं ब्रह्माणो विदुर्न तस्याश्नाति कश्चन !! ऋग्वेद 10/85/3
Yask translates this mantra by saying-" Some chemists crush soma and then drink it , and think that they have drunk soma. This is not correct, because that is not true soma."
But The Soma that Learned, Scientists, Intellectuals, know of is not an edible product.
आच्छद्विधानैर्गुपितो बार्हते सोम रक्षित: !
ग्राव्णामिच्छृएवन्तिष्ठसि नते अश्नाति पार्थिव: !! ऋग्वेद 10/85/4
It is covered and protected by well regulated non material laws governing in the material world .
Soma can not be physically consumed by a living being.
-..... ....... .......
...... ...... .........
On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 9:33 PM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> wrote:_______________________________________________Thanks to everyone for alerting me also offline to the missing picture!Meanwhile I had to realize that others who had explored the secret Himalayan Soma vendor cave (after me), made haste to publish it (before I could), failing however to decipher and translate the inscriptional caption. Anyhow, for those interested in the pre-Śrauta early Aryan Soma trade, here is the link for further research:Best wishes,WSAm Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 17:48 Uhr schrieb Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh@umich.edu>:Dear Walter,This sounds exciting. The png file you attached is not opening for some reason. Could you please send it again in a readable format. Thanks.MadhavMadhav M. DeshpandeProfessor EmeritusSanskrit and LinguisticsUniversity of Michigan[Residence: Campbell, California]On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 7:33 AM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> wrote:_______________________________________________An approximately 4000+ years old wall painting recently retrieved from a western Himalayan cave will solve the disputed matter unless and until the ephedra party succeeds in producing comparably firm counterevidence:
The Soma vendors left a caption below the painting:
“Aṃśu of only the finest quality being carried down the slopes by a satisfied Āryan customer with his personal cart. Please note his thrill of anticipation and replenish your stocks at your trusted dealers from Mount Mūjavant !”
pīyatām, svastaye!
WS
Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 11:44 Uhr schrieb rainer stuhrmann via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info>:Dear all,
To answer to Prof. Houben long statement, skipping future experiments
that can prove everything and nothing:
Main problem with Ephedra is: it does not fit at all
1. the Rigvedic ritual, for a detailed discussion of that see my
article, p.22ff, p.31 (btw. nothing is said in the RV
about “sprinkling” the Soma),
2. Somas colours which refer to the pressed juice, see p. 31-38
3. the effects described by the poets, see p.44-71
whereas Amanita muscaria does in all respects.
To
“The main error in the argument ... by Dr. Stuhrmann and others
would seem to be that *all* poetic-hallucinogenic descriptions of the
Soma plant are taken as resulting *directly and exclusively* from the
use of a drug or psychoactive substance, whereas (1) the ritual in which
the Soma-beverage is produced contains other, significant
"transformative-hallucinogenic" practices that appear as crucial
already in the pre-Srauta, Rgvedic ritual; (2) from Saint Franciscus and
Teresia of Avila to William Wordsworth and Apollinaire, poets write
"psychedelic" or "visionary" poetry without being known to have used
strong psychotropic substances.“
the answer is:
(1) has not be demonstrated for the RV
(2) is not disputed at all (see my article p.20), but the occurence of
which elsewehere is of course no proof for the RV.
But if Houben argues:
“ In addition, a lack of nutritients through fasting and thirsting may
induce hallucinations as well. The same applies to the deprivation
sleep. Most importantly, whether a substance or the absence of
substances does indeed produce a hallucination will usually depend to a
large
extent on the physiological and psychological condition of the subject,
whereas the nature of the hallucination or vision will depend on his
psychology and cultural background.“(Houben, 2003: 3,1)
the problem here is:
the Rigveda does not tell us about “fasting and thirsting, deprivation
of sleep” (Houben) etc, but the poets say very often loud and clear: “We
have just drunk Soma” (see discussion of this, p. 19ff).
And that is a dried plant arriving on the ritual place, soaked in water,
swelled by that process(as e.g. mushrooms do), pressed out (not beaten),
giving a red to yellowish juice (as e.g. the fly-agaric does),
mixed with milk and drunken for /máda/ “inebriation”, the described
effects of which fit the optical illusionsproduced by hallicunogenic
drugs (as e.g. the fly agaric and btw. also his dreaded side-effects,
see pp. 49-52). For a detailed discussion of this, including
counterarguments by Brough, Houben, Falk and others etc see my article
2006, pp 10-21 and pp 44-70 .
Best regards
Rainer Stuhrmann
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--_______________________________________________Nagaraj PaturiHyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, MaharashtraBoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, KeralaFormer Senior Professor of Cultural StudiesFLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
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--_______________________________________________Jan E.M. Houben
Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite
École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, PSL - Université Paris)
Sciences historiques et philologiques
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--_______________________________________________Jan E.M. Houben
Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite
École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, PSL - Université Paris)
Sciences historiques et philologiques
54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 – 75005 Paris
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