[INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria

Thu Oct 11 10:11:07 UTC 2018

Dear George,

I am also waiting for your paper. Please, do find it!

I would also like to say that I have analysed the problem of Soma in my
"Fire and cognition in the Rgveda" (2010). I have not tried to decide its
botanical identification, but I have analysed how this concept was used by
the Rgvedic poets (on the basis of the experience which is attested in the
RV) in their philosophical (yes, I dare to use this word) investigation.
The work of George was very useful for me.

Best wishes,

Joanna

---
Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz
Katedra Azji Południowej /Chair of South Asia
Wydział Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
ul. Krakowskie Przedmieście 26/28
00-927 Warszawa
https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz

śr., 10 paź 2018 o 23:33 Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> napisał(a):

> Dear George,
> Please do make available pdfs of your contributions which I find always
> enriching, stimulating and well-considered, even if I do not always agree
> in all respects.
> And it is always handy to have pdfs even if the paper is in a physical
> book at home and/or in a library.
> Best regards,
> Jan
>
>
> On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 23:12, George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Dear List,
>>
>> Regarding Soma, maybe  it would be useful to cite a Soma hymn.  I would
>> recommend RV 10.119, which I have translated and discussed and published in
>> several places.  I have been looking for a pdf file to send to the list but
>> I cannot find one right now.  In the meantime, it can be found in my paper
>> in the Frits Staal memorial volume and also in my EJVS paper already
>> cited.  If folks are having trouble finding these papers, I will try to
>> convert them to pdf files so that they can be sent by email.
>>
>> Obviously, I like talking about Soma.  By the way, I was asked a number
>> of years ago to write a paper on Soma for a popular yoga journal here in
>> the US "Naamaruupa:Categories of Indian Thought"  [April 2007].  This was
>> written for non-specialists in Vedic and is more accessible than my
>> scholarly papers.
>>
>> George
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 3:47 PM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Nagaraj-ji,
>>> To my disappointment I see that the scholars to whom you refer quote the
>>> Rgveda without giving the accent although it is an indispensable feature
>>> for determining the precise meaning of a mantra; a feature, moreover, which
>>> Paanini and the Praatisaakhya authors took so much trouble to describe in
>>> detail and which has been studied with much critical acumen by modern
>>> scholars such as Oldenberg, Thieme, Palsule, etc. (for excellent Vedic
>>> scholars I do not distinguish between "western" and "indic", at the most
>>> between "modern" and "traditional").
>>> The basic necessity to take into account accent should apply also, and,
>>> I hope, all the more, to the new "Śāstric research methodology" you and
>>> your colleagues are now proposing to design and develop.
>>> I would recommend the use Gandhari Unicode which allows to type all
>>> required accents for Sanskrit, Vedic and even for other Indo-european
>>> languages.
>>> For Devanagari the Nakula and Sahadeva fonts do give a basic possibility
>>> to put the accent in Rgvedic style.
>>> There may be other fonts for Sanskrit and Vedic in Devanagari which
>>> allow putting accents even in a better, more detailed way including
>>> according to the style of other Śākhās as well.
>>> With best regards,
>>> Jan Houben
>>>
>>> On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 20:48, Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Shrikant Jamdagni-ji posted on another list:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Scholars,
>>>>
>>>> I am reproducing some passages from Collected Works of Acharya
>>>> T.V.Kapali Sastry Vol.1 Book Of Lights.Page 62. Acharya Kapali Sastry was a
>>>> collaborator of Sri Aurobindo in their work of reconstructing the esoteric
>>>> or inner meaning of the RgVeda.
>>>>
>>>> "........ Here we may note in passing that the Soma plant is an extinct
>>>> species and it was not easily available even thirty centuries ago.
>>>> Twenty-four varieties of Soma plant are mentioned along with the places of
>>>> their growth and their therapeutic virtues such as strength and longevity
>>>> in the Sushruta Samhita (Chikitsa-sthana, Chapter 29), but the intoxicating
>>>> property is not mentioned"
>>>>
>>>> "...And some Riks cannot be properly construed at all if the Soma is
>>>> taken to mean the drug. What are we to say when the Veda plainly hymns "O
>>>> Thou, all-seeing, the illuminating rays of thee, who art the lord,
>>>> encompass all the abodes;Soma, with thy natural powers thou pervadest (the
>>>> all) and flowest, thou art the king and ord of the whole world" ? (RgVeda
>>>> 9.86.5).
>>>> Another Rik openly decides the question of Soma. "When they crush the
>>>> herb, one thinks that he has drunk the Soma; but no one ever tastes him
>>>> whom the Brahmans know to be the Soma" (RgVeda 10.85.3)
>>>>
>>>> regards
>>>>
>>>> Shrikant Jamadagni
>>>> Bangalore
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>
>>>> On the same list,
>>>>
>>>> Subodh Kumar-ji wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Soma: What it is and what it does
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Monier Williams (in his great Sanskrit English Dictionary)  interprets
>>>> SOMA only at physical level  as a -juice, extract,(esp.)the juice of
>>>> Soma plant, (also) the Soma plant itself,(said to be a climbing plant) the
>>>> stalks, an  अंशु  anshu of which  is pressed between stones by the
>>>> priests, then sprinkled with water , and purified in a strainer to get
>>>> Soma.  Anshu अंशु however is translated by MW  as  a
>>>> filament(especially of Soma plant);thread; end of a thread, a minute
>>>> particle; a point, end;..
>>>>
>>>> ....... There is an obvious incongruity in this interpretation of Soma.
>>>> It will be physically a difficult / impractical task to press the thread,
>>>> end of thread, a minute particle, a point of Soma plant. The entire concept
>>>> of an  already minute particle, to be pressed between stones,
>>>> sprinkled with water and purified in a strainer is more in the realm of an
>>>> imagined process and not physically feasible .
>>>>
>>>> In fact Dr Nene beautifully describes the human anotomical process by
>>>> which human brain processes all information as if crushing on stones and
>>>> then sifts the findings for concusive decision to arrive at final wisdom.
>>>> That is Soma. Dr Nene actually describes the physical features in human
>>>> anatomy that work like two stones to press by and then a seive of wool like
>>>> structure throgh which the pressed substance is actually strained in
>>>> processing of information by human brain.
>>>>
>>>>  Thus  in popular perception SOMA is  a kind of  herbal preparation,
>>>> which is consumed for exhilarating/ stimulating  benefits.  But  Soma
>>>> is a lot more than a mere stimulating herbal  concoction. The entire 9
>>>> th  chapter Mandal on Pavmani Soma of Rig Veda appears to have escaped
>>>> notice of MW in giving this highly limiting interpretation of Soma. Pavmani
>>>> Soma signifies a  non physical  entity  that provides the stimulant
>>>> for physical action for welfare and benefit of entire creation.
>>>>
>>>> Vedic Soma
>>>>
>>>> सोमेनादित्या बलिन: सोमेना पृथिवी मही !
>>>>
>>>> अथो नक्षत्राणामेषामुपस्थे सोम आहित: !! ऋग्वेद 10/85/2
>>>>
>>>> Solar radiations, the greatness of earth and all the planets in the sky
>>>> that support life, derive their abilities from the SOMA that is established
>>>> in them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> सोमं मन्यते पपिवान्यत्संपिंषंत्योषधिम् !
>>>>
>>>> सोमं यं ब्रह्माणो विदुर्न तस्याश्नाति कश्चन !! ऋग्वेद 10/85/3
>>>>
>>>>  Yask translates this mantra by saying-" Some chemists crush soma and
>>>> then drink it , and think that they have drunk soma. This is not correct,
>>>> because that is not true soma."
>>>>
>>>> But The Soma that Learned, Scientists, Intellectuals, know of is not an
>>>> edible product.
>>>>
>>>> आच्छद्विधानैर्गुपितो बार्हते सोम रक्षित: !
>>>>
>>>> ग्राव्णामिच्छृएवन्तिष्ठसि नते अश्नाति पार्थिव: !! ऋग्वेद 10/85/4
>>>>
>>>> It is covered and protected by well regulated non material  laws  governing
>>>> in the material world .
>>>>
>>>> Soma can not be physically consumed by a living being*.*
>>>>
>>>> * -.....     .......   .......  *
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *......    ......  .........*
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 9:33 PM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks to everyone for alerting me also offline to the missing picture!
>>>>> Meanwhile I had to realize that others who had explored the secret
>>>>> Himalayan Soma vendor cave (after me), made haste to publish it (before I
>>>>> could), failing however to decipher and translate the inscriptional
>>>>> caption. Anyhow, for those interested in the pre-Śrauta early Aryan Soma
>>>>> trade, here is the link for further research:
>>>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zwerg_Postkarte_001.jpg
>>>>>
>>>>> Best wishes,
>>>>> WS
>>>>>
>>>>> Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 17:48 Uhr schrieb Madhav Deshpande <
>>>>> mmdesh at umich.edu>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Walter,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>      This sounds exciting.  The png file you attached is not opening
>>>>>> for some reason.  Could you please send it again in a readable format.
>>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Madhav
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>>>>>> Professor Emeritus
>>>>>> Sanskrit and Linguistics
>>>>>> University of Michigan
>>>>>> [Residence: Campbell, California]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 7:33 AM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> An approximately 4000+ years old wall painting recently retrieved
>>>>>>> from a western Himalayan cave will solve the disputed matter unless and
>>>>>>> until the ephedra party succeeds in producing comparably firm
>>>>>>> counterevidence:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [image: grafik.png]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The Soma vendors left a caption below the painting:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “*Aṃśu* of only the finest quality being carried down the slopes by
>>>>>>> a satisfied Āryan customer with his personal cart. Please note his thrill
>>>>>>> of anticipation and replenish your stocks at your trusted dealers from
>>>>>>> Mount Mūjavant !”
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> pīyatām, svastaye!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> WS
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 11:44 Uhr schrieb rainer stuhrmann via
>>>>>>> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To answer to Prof. Houben long statement, skipping future
>>>>>>>> experiments
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> that can prove everything and nothing:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Main problem with Ephedra is: it does not fit at all
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 1. the Rigvedic ritual, for a detailed discussion of that see my
>>>>>>>> article, p.22ff, p.31 (btw. nothing is said in the RV
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> about “sprinkling” the Soma),
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 2. Somas colours which refer to the pressed juice, see p. 31-38
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> 3.  the effects described by the poets, see p.44-71
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> whereas Amanita muscaria does in all respects.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> “The main error in the argument ... by Dr. Stuhrmann and others
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> would seem to be that *all* poetic-hallucinogenic descriptions of
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> Soma plant are taken as resulting *directly and exclusively* from
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> use of a drug or psychoactive substance, whereas (1) the ritual in
>>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>>> the Soma-beverage is produced contains other, significant
>>>>>>>>   "transformative-hallucinogenic" practices that appear as crucial
>>>>>>>> already in the pre-Srauta, Rgvedic ritual; (2) from Saint
>>>>>>>> Franciscus and
>>>>>>>> Teresia of Avila to William Wordsworth and Apollinaire, poets write
>>>>>>>> "psychedelic" or "visionary" poetry without being known to have
>>>>>>>> used
>>>>>>>> strong psychotropic substances.“
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the answer is:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (1) has not be demonstrated for the RV
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> (2) is not disputed at all (see my article p.20), but the occurence
>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>> which elsewehere is of course no proof for the RV.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But if Houben argues:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> “ In addition, a lack of nutritients through fasting and thirsting
>>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>>> induce hallucinations as well. The same applies to the deprivation
>>>>>>>> sleep. Most importantly, whether a substance or the absence of
>>>>>>>> substances does indeed produce a hallucination will usually depend
>>>>>>>> to a
>>>>>>>> large
>>>>>>>> extent on the physiological and psychological condition of the
>>>>>>>> subject,
>>>>>>>> whereas the nature of the hallucination or vision will depend on his
>>>>>>>> psychology and cultural background.“(Houben, 2003: 3,1)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the problem here is:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> the Rigveda does not tell us about “fasting and thirsting,
>>>>>>>> deprivation
>>>>>>>> of sleep” (Houben) etc, but the poets say very often loud and
>>>>>>>> clear: “We
>>>>>>>> have just drunk Soma” (see discussion of this, p. 19ff).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And that is a dried plant arriving on the ritual place, soaked in
>>>>>>>> water,
>>>>>>>> swelled by that process(as e.g. mushrooms do), pressed out (not
>>>>>>>> beaten),
>>>>>>>> giving a red to yellowish juice (as e.g. the fly-agaric does),
>>>>>>>> mixed with milk and drunken for /máda/ “inebriation”, the described
>>>>>>>> effects of which fit the optical illusionsproduced by
>>>>>>>> hallicunogenic
>>>>>>>> drugs (as e.g. the fly agaric and btw. also his dreaded
>>>>>>>> side-effects,
>>>>>>>> see pp. 49-52). For a detailed discussion of this, including
>>>>>>>> counterarguments by Brough, Houben, Falk and others etc see my
>>>>>>>> article
>>>>>>>> 2006, pp 10-21 and pp 44-70 .
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Rainer Stuhrmann
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
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>>>>> committee)
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>
>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>>>>
>>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>>
>>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>>
>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>
>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>
>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
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>>>> committee)
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>>>
>>> Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>>>
>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>>>
>>> École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, PSL - Université Paris)
>>>
>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>>>
>>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 – 75005 Paris
>>>
>>> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*
>>>
>>> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>>>
>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>
>
> --
>
> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>
> Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>
> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>
> École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, PSL - Université Paris)
>
> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>
> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 – 75005 Paris
>
> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*
>
> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>
> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
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