[INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria

Wed Oct 10 21:32:06 UTC 2018

Dear George,
Please do make available pdfs of your contributions which I find always
enriching, stimulating and well-considered, even if I do not always agree
in all respects.
And it is always handy to have pdfs even if the paper is in a physical book
at home and/or in a library.
Best regards,
Jan

On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 23:12, George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear List,
>
> Regarding Soma, maybe  it would be useful to cite a Soma hymn.  I would
> recommend RV 10.119, which I have translated and discussed and published in
> several places.  I have been looking for a pdf file to send to the list but
> I cannot find one right now.  In the meantime, it can be found in my paper
> in the Frits Staal memorial volume and also in my EJVS paper already
> cited.  If folks are having trouble finding these papers, I will try to
> convert them to pdf files so that they can be sent by email.
>
> Obviously, I like talking about Soma.  By the way, I was asked a number of
> years ago to write a paper on Soma for a popular yoga journal here in the
> US "Naamaruupa:Categories of Indian Thought"  [April 2007].  This was
> written for non-specialists in Vedic and is more accessible than my
> scholarly papers.
>
> George
>
> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 3:47 PM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear Nagaraj-ji,
>> To my disappointment I see that the scholars to whom you refer quote the
>> Rgveda without giving the accent although it is an indispensable feature
>> for determining the precise meaning of a mantra; a feature, moreover, which
>> Paanini and the Praatisaakhya authors took so much trouble to describe in
>> detail and which has been studied with much critical acumen by modern
>> scholars such as Oldenberg, Thieme, Palsule, etc. (for excellent Vedic
>> scholars I do not distinguish between "western" and "indic", at the most
>> between "modern" and "traditional").
>> The basic necessity to take into account accent should apply also, and, I
>> hope, all the more, to the new "Śāstric research methodology" you and your
>> colleagues are now proposing to design and develop.
>> I would recommend the use Gandhari Unicode which allows to type all
>> required accents for Sanskrit, Vedic and even for other Indo-european
>> languages.
>> For Devanagari the Nakula and Sahadeva fonts do give a basic possibility
>> to put the accent in Rgvedic style.
>> There may be other fonts for Sanskrit and Vedic in Devanagari which allow
>> putting accents even in a better, more detailed way including according to
>> the style of other Śākhās as well.
>> With best regards,
>> Jan Houben
>>
>> On Wed, 10 Oct 2018 at 20:48, Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Shrikant Jamdagni-ji posted on another list:
>>>
>>> Dear Scholars,
>>>
>>> I am reproducing some passages from Collected Works of Acharya
>>> T.V.Kapali Sastry Vol.1 Book Of Lights.Page 62. Acharya Kapali Sastry was a
>>> collaborator of Sri Aurobindo in their work of reconstructing the esoteric
>>> or inner meaning of the RgVeda.
>>>
>>> "........ Here we may note in passing that the Soma plant is an extinct
>>> species and it was not easily available even thirty centuries ago.
>>> Twenty-four varieties of Soma plant are mentioned along with the places of
>>> their growth and their therapeutic virtues such as strength and longevity
>>> in the Sushruta Samhita (Chikitsa-sthana, Chapter 29), but the intoxicating
>>> property is not mentioned"
>>>
>>> "...And some Riks cannot be properly construed at all if the Soma is
>>> taken to mean the drug. What are we to say when the Veda plainly hymns "O
>>> Thou, all-seeing, the illuminating rays of thee, who art the lord,
>>> encompass all the abodes;Soma, with thy natural powers thou pervadest (the
>>> all) and flowest, thou art the king and ord of the whole world" ? (RgVeda
>>> 9.86.5).
>>> Another Rik openly decides the question of Soma. "When they crush the
>>> herb, one thinks that he has drunk the Soma; but no one ever tastes him
>>> whom the Brahmans know to be the Soma" (RgVeda 10.85.3)
>>>
>>> regards
>>>
>>> Shrikant Jamadagni
>>> Bangalore
>>>
>>>
>>> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> On the same list,
>>>
>>> Subodh Kumar-ji wrote:
>>>
>>> Soma: What it is and what it does
>>>
>>>
>>> Monier Williams (in his great Sanskrit English Dictionary)  interprets
>>> SOMA only at physical level  as a -juice, extract,(esp.)the juice of
>>> Soma plant, (also) the Soma plant itself,(said to be a climbing plant) the
>>> stalks, an  अंशु  anshu of which  is pressed between stones by the
>>> priests, then sprinkled with water , and purified in a strainer to get
>>> Soma.  Anshu अंशु however is translated by MW  as  a
>>> filament(especially of Soma plant);thread; end of a thread, a minute
>>> particle; a point, end;..
>>>
>>> ....... There is an obvious incongruity in this interpretation of Soma.
>>> It will be physically a difficult / impractical task to press the thread,
>>> end of thread, a minute particle, a point of Soma plant. The entire concept
>>> of an  already minute particle, to be pressed between stones, sprinkled
>>> with water and purified in a strainer is more in the realm of an imagined
>>> process and not physically feasible .
>>>
>>> In fact Dr Nene beautifully describes the human anotomical process by
>>> which human brain processes all information as if crushing on stones and
>>> then sifts the findings for concusive decision to arrive at final wisdom.
>>> That is Soma. Dr Nene actually describes the physical features in human
>>> anatomy that work like two stones to press by and then a seive of wool like
>>> structure throgh which the pressed substance is actually strained in
>>> processing of information by human brain.
>>>
>>>  Thus  in popular perception SOMA is  a kind of  herbal preparation,
>>> which is consumed for exhilarating/ stimulating  benefits.  But  Soma
>>> is a lot more than a mere stimulating herbal  concoction. The entire 9th
>>>   chapter Mandal on Pavmani Soma of Rig Veda appears to have escaped
>>> notice of MW in giving this highly limiting interpretation of Soma. Pavmani
>>> Soma signifies a  non physical  entity  that provides the stimulant for
>>> physical action for welfare and benefit of entire creation.
>>>
>>> Vedic Soma
>>>
>>> सोमेनादित्या बलिन: सोमेना पृथिवी मही !
>>>
>>> अथो नक्षत्राणामेषामुपस्थे सोम आहित: !! ऋग्वेद 10/85/2
>>>
>>> Solar radiations, the greatness of earth and all the planets in the sky
>>> that support life, derive their abilities from the SOMA that is established
>>> in them.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> सोमं मन्यते पपिवान्यत्संपिंषंत्योषधिम् !
>>>
>>> सोमं यं ब्रह्माणो विदुर्न तस्याश्नाति कश्चन !! ऋग्वेद 10/85/3
>>>
>>>  Yask translates this mantra by saying-" Some chemists crush soma and
>>> then drink it , and think that they have drunk soma. This is not correct,
>>> because that is not true soma."
>>>
>>> But The Soma that Learned, Scientists, Intellectuals, know of is not an
>>> edible product.
>>>
>>> आच्छद्विधानैर्गुपितो बार्हते सोम रक्षित: !
>>>
>>> ग्राव्णामिच्छृएवन्तिष्ठसि नते अश्नाति पार्थिव: !! ऋग्वेद 10/85/4
>>>
>>> It is covered and protected by well regulated non material  laws  governing
>>> in the material world .
>>>
>>> Soma can not be physically consumed by a living being*.*
>>>
>>> * -.....     .......   .......  *
>>>
>>>
>>> *......    ......  .........*
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 9:33 PM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thanks to everyone for alerting me also offline to the missing picture!
>>>> Meanwhile I had to realize that others who had explored the secret
>>>> Himalayan Soma vendor cave (after me), made haste to publish it (before I
>>>> could), failing however to decipher and translate the inscriptional
>>>> caption. Anyhow, for those interested in the pre-Śrauta early Aryan Soma
>>>> trade, here is the link for further research:
>>>> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Zwerg_Postkarte_001.jpg
>>>>
>>>> Best wishes,
>>>> WS
>>>>
>>>> Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 17:48 Uhr schrieb Madhav Deshpande <
>>>> mmdesh at umich.edu>:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Walter,
>>>>>
>>>>>      This sounds exciting.  The png file you attached is not opening
>>>>> for some reason.  Could you please send it again in a readable format.
>>>>> Thanks.
>>>>>
>>>>> Madhav
>>>>>
>>>>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>>>>> Professor Emeritus
>>>>> Sanskrit and Linguistics
>>>>> University of Michigan
>>>>> [Residence: Campbell, California]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Oct 10, 2018 at 7:33 AM Walter Slaje via INDOLOGY <
>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> An approximately 4000+ years old wall painting recently retrieved
>>>>>> from a western Himalayan cave will solve the disputed matter unless and
>>>>>> until the ephedra party succeeds in producing comparably firm
>>>>>> counterevidence:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [image: grafik.png]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The Soma vendors left a caption below the painting:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> “*Aṃśu* of only the finest quality being carried down the slopes by
>>>>>> a satisfied Āryan customer with his personal cart. Please note his thrill
>>>>>> of anticipation and replenish your stocks at your trusted dealers from
>>>>>> Mount Mūjavant !”
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> pīyatām, svastaye!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WS
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am Mi., 10. Okt. 2018 um 11:44 Uhr schrieb rainer stuhrmann via
>>>>>> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear all,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To answer to Prof. Houben long statement, skipping future experiments
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> that can prove everything and nothing:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Main problem with Ephedra is: it does not fit at all
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 1. the Rigvedic ritual, for a detailed discussion of that see my
>>>>>>> article, p.22ff, p.31 (btw. nothing is said in the RV
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> about “sprinkling” the Soma),
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 2. Somas colours which refer to the pressed juice, see p. 31-38
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> 3.  the effects described by the poets, see p.44-71
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> whereas Amanita muscaria does in all respects.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “The main error in the argument ... by Dr. Stuhrmann and others
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> would seem to be that *all* poetic-hallucinogenic descriptions of
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> Soma plant are taken as resulting *directly and exclusively* from
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> use of a drug or psychoactive substance, whereas (1) the ritual in
>>>>>>> which
>>>>>>> the Soma-beverage is produced contains other, significant
>>>>>>>   "transformative-hallucinogenic" practices that appear as crucial
>>>>>>> already in the pre-Srauta, Rgvedic ritual; (2) from Saint Franciscus
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> Teresia of Avila to William Wordsworth and Apollinaire, poets write
>>>>>>> "psychedelic" or "visionary" poetry without being known to have used
>>>>>>> strong psychotropic substances.“
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the answer is:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (1) has not be demonstrated for the RV
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> (2) is not disputed at all (see my article p.20), but the occurence
>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>> which elsewehere is of course no proof for the RV.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But if Houben argues:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> “ In addition, a lack of nutritients through fasting and thirsting
>>>>>>> may
>>>>>>> induce hallucinations as well. The same applies to the deprivation
>>>>>>> sleep. Most importantly, whether a substance or the absence of
>>>>>>> substances does indeed produce a hallucination will usually depend
>>>>>>> to a
>>>>>>> large
>>>>>>> extent on the physiological and psychological condition of the
>>>>>>> subject,
>>>>>>> whereas the nature of the hallucination or vision will depend on his
>>>>>>> psychology and cultural background.“(Houben, 2003: 3,1)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the problem here is:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> the Rigveda does not tell us about “fasting and thirsting,
>>>>>>> deprivation
>>>>>>> of sleep” (Houben) etc, but the poets say very often loud and clear:
>>>>>>> “We
>>>>>>> have just drunk Soma” (see discussion of this, p. 19ff).
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And that is a dried plant arriving on the ritual place, soaked in
>>>>>>> water,
>>>>>>> swelled by that process(as e.g. mushrooms do), pressed out (not
>>>>>>> beaten),
>>>>>>> giving a red to yellowish juice (as e.g. the fly-agaric does),
>>>>>>> mixed with milk and drunken for /máda/ “inebriation”, the described
>>>>>>> effects of which fit the optical illusionsproduced by hallicunogenic
>>>>>>> drugs (as e.g. the fly agaric and btw. also his dreaded side-effects,
>>>>>>> see pp. 49-52). For a detailed discussion of this, including
>>>>>>> counterarguments by Brough, Houben, Falk and others etc see my
>>>>>>> article
>>>>>>> 2006, pp 10-21 and pp 44-70 .
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best regards
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Rainer Stuhrmann
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>> committee)
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>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>
>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>
>>>
>>> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>>>
>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>
>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>
>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>
>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>
>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>>
>> Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>>
>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>>
>> École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, PSL - Université Paris)
>>
>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>>
>> 54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 – 75005 Paris
>>
>> *johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*
>>
>> *johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>>
>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> committee)
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>> unsubscribe)
>>
>

-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, PSL - Université Paris)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

54, rue Saint-Jacques, CS 20525 – 75005 Paris

*johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr <johannes.houben at ephe.sorbonne.fr>*

*johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*

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