[INDOLOGY] Fwd: Re: Soma and Amanita muscaria

[Madhav Deshpande]

Dear George,

     Were you going to attach the pdf of your articles?  Did I miss
something?

Madhav

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus
Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan
[Residence: Campbell, California]


On Thu, Nov 15, 2018 at 1:47 PM George Thompson via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear List,
>
> I apologize for having dropped out of our conversation for a while.  After
> recovering from the flu I found myself swamped by unfulfilled obligations.
> Fortunately, I am able to return to our conversation now.  First, I will
> attach a pdf file that includes my three Soma papers which have been
> mentioned already.  Unfortunately, the librarian whom I asked to make these
> pdfs for me made only one pdf file that included all three papers together
> [I had assumed that he would make a pdf of each paper, but I guess he saved
> himself some time].
>
> Also, while I was sick in I bed, I ordered a copy of Matthew Clark's book
> "The Tawny One", and when I received it I read it within a week   I
> strongly recommend it to all list members.  He makes two main
> points. First, he asserts and argues well that soma/haoma plant had
> psychedelic/entheogenic properties,  Second he asserts and argues well that
> there was not one soma/haoma plant, but rather that  there were many.  This
> makes sense to me.
>
> I am not an ethnobotanist, So I have found Clark's ethnobotanical
> discussions very helpful.  He has good command of Vedic literature in
> translation as well as good command of the secondary literature [he also
> knows later Sanskrit well].  He surveys all of the major proposals that
> attempt to identify the ur-soma/haoma plant and juice.
>
> Like Mathew, I look forward to more discussion.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> George Thompson
>
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 9:54 PM Matthew Clark via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Greetings, I am not sure if my last reply was posted or not. Just in case
>> it wasn't, here are a few points in reply to previous questions. Best,
>> Matthew Clark.
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
>> From: Matthew Clark <mahabongo at gmail.com>
>> Date: Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 08:46
>> Subject: Re: Re: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
>> To: Mark Singleton <ms156 at soas.ac.uk>
>>
>>
>> Greetings all, thanks for the responses. Addressing some of the points
>> raised:
>>
>> 1. There are references in the RV (see my book) to "soma of the valleys,
>> soma of the hills, soma of the rivers", etc., i.e. many somas. This is
>> echoed not only in the Avesta but also in the materia medica of India. Soma
>> was not one plant, it was many plants.
>>
>> 2. I think that the strongest argument against fly agaric is recent
>> psychedelic history. Who eats or drinks fly-agaric in the West (or
>> anywhere, apart from Siberia, corners of Afghanistan, and by the Objiway of
>> North America)? Very few people do so (there are a few enthusiasts, of
>> course: see my book). Many years ago I tried eating fly agaric: it was
>> quite destabilizing. In over 40 years of global observation I have never
>> come across a fly-agaric "movement". In contrast, as I mentioned, consider
>> the enthusiasm for the classic tryptamines. This is not a "knock-out"
>> argument, just a consideration of the weight of probabilities.
>>
>> 3. In soma rites, the concoction is usually consumed three times in a day.
>>
>> 4. The sound of vigorous pounding is amplified in the sound holes under
>> the planks.
>>
>> 5. The soma rasa of the Vedas later becomes an internal amrita in yoga
>> texts and elsewhere.
>>
>> 6. Although psychedelic plants are consumed occasionally in some tribal
>> cultures of South Asia, I am not aware of any living psychedelic "cult" as
>> such (any information on this point would be greatly appreciated). In my
>> book I mention the living ayahuasca analogue cult run by Qalandar in Iran.
>>
>> More soon, no doubt. Matthew Clark.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018, 23:51 Mark Singleton <ms156 at soas.ac.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
>>> Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 08:59:31 +0530
>>> From: Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
>>> <indology at list.indology.info>
>>> Reply-To: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>>> <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>>> To: Michael Slouber <Michael.Slouber at wwu.edu> <Michael.Slouber at wwu.edu>
>>> CC: Indology <indology at list.indology.info> <indology at list.indology.info>
>>>
>>> In Bhagavadgita, we have
>>>
>>> पुष्णामि चौषधीः सर्वाः सोमो भूत्वा रसात्मकः ॥ १५-१३॥
>>>
>>> This usage of the word Soma indicates that at least by the time of
>>> composition of Gita, Soma has been viewed as the Rasa that provides the
>>> common quality to all the (medicinal) plants.
>>>
>>> Even if this usage is viewed as the result of a semantic change from the
>>> Vedic usage, there has to be a common semantic connection between the two
>>> usages that lead to this semantic change.
>>>
>>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 8:05 AM Michael Slouber via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Just a note that is it certainly untrue that South Asia lacks living
>>>> traditions involving consumption of psychedelic plants; shamans in Nepal,
>>>> for example, have a rich and diverse tradition of using dozens of such
>>>> plants.  On this, see the following excellent and heavily photo-documented
>>>> book:  *Shamanism and Tantra in the Himalayas* by Claudia Müller-Ebeling;
>>>> Christian Rätsch, 2002.
>>>>
>>>> Michael Slouber, Ph.D.
>>>> Associate Professor, South Asian Studies
>>>> Dept. of Liberal Studies
>>>> Western Washington University
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>
>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>
>>>
>>> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>>>
>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>
>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>
>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>
>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>
>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
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