Dear List,

I apologize for having dropped out of our conversation for a while.  After recovering from the flu I found myself swamped by unfulfilled obligations.  Fortunately, I am able to return to our conversation now.  First, I will attach a pdf file that includes my three Soma papers which have been mentioned already.  Unfortunately, the librarian whom I asked to make these pdfs for me made only one pdf file that included all three papers together [I had assumed that he would make a pdf of each paper, but I guess he saved himself some time]. 

Also, while I was sick in I bed, I ordered a copy of Matthew Clark's book "The Tawny One", and when I received it I read it within a week   I strongly recommend it to all list members.  He makes two main points. First, he asserts and argues well that soma/haoma plant had psychedelic/entheogenic properties,  Second he asserts and argues well that there was not one soma/haoma plant, but rather that  there were many.  This makes sense to me.

I am not an ethnobotanist, So I have found Clark's ethnobotanical discussions very helpful.  He has good command of Vedic literature in translation as well as good command of the secondary literature [he also knows later Sanskrit well].  He surveys all of the major proposals that attempt to identify the ur-soma/haoma plant and juice. 

Like Mathew, I look forward to more discussion.

Best wishes,

George Thompson

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 9:54 PM Matthew Clark via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> wrote:

Greetings, I am not sure if my last reply was posted or not. Just in case it wasn't, here are a few points in reply to previous questions. Best, Matthew Clark.

---------- Forwarded message ---------
From: Matthew Clark <mahabongo@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 08:46
Subject: Re: Re: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
To: Mark Singleton <ms156@soas.ac.uk>

Greetings all, thanks for the responses. Addressing some of the points raised:

1. There are references in the RV (see my book) to "soma of the valleys, soma of the hills, soma of the rivers", etc., i.e. many somas. This is echoed not only in the Avesta but also in the materia medica of India. Soma was not one plant, it was many plants.

2. I think that the strongest argument against fly agaric is recent psychedelic history. Who eats or drinks fly-agaric in the West (or anywhere, apart from Siberia, corners of Afghanistan, and by the Objiway of North America)? Very few people do so (there are a few enthusiasts, of course: see my book). Many years ago I tried eating fly agaric: it was quite destabilizing. In over 40 years of global observation I have never come across a fly-agaric "movement". In contrast, as I mentioned, consider the enthusiasm for the classic tryptamines. This is not a "knock-out" argument, just a consideration of the weight of probabilities. 

3. In soma rites, the concoction is usually consumed three times in a day.

4. The sound of vigorous pounding is amplified in the sound holes under the planks.

5. The soma rasa of the Vedas later becomes an internal amrita in yoga texts and elsewhere.

6. Although psychedelic plants are consumed occasionally in some tribal cultures of South Asia, I am not aware of any living psychedelic "cult" as such (any information on this point would be greatly appreciated). In my book I mention the living ayahuasca analogue cult run by Qalandar in Iran.

More soon, no doubt. Matthew Clark.

On Mon, Oct 15, 2018, 23:51 Mark Singleton <ms156@soas.ac.uk> wrote:

-------- Forwarded Message --------

Subject:	Re: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
Date:	Mon, 15 Oct 2018 08:59:31 +0530
From:	Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info>
Reply-To:	Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi@gmail.com>
To:	Michael Slouber <Michael.Slouber@wwu.edu>
CC:	Indology <indology@list.indology.info>

In Bhagavadgita, we have

पुष्णामि चौषधीः सर्वाः सोमो भूत्वा रसात्मकः ॥ १५-१३॥

This usage of the word Soma indicates that at least by the time of composition of Gita, Soma has been viewed as the Rasa that provides the common quality to all the (medicinal) plants. 

Even if this usage is viewed as the result of a semantic change from the Vedic usage, there has to be a common semantic connection between the two usages that lead to this semantic change. 

On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 8:05 AM Michael Slouber via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> wrote:

Just a note that is it certainly untrue that South Asia lacks living traditions involving consumption of psychedelic plants; shamans in Nepal, for example, have a rich and diverse tradition of using dozens of such plants.  On this, see the following excellent and heavily photo-documented book:  *Shamanism and Tantra in the Himalayas* by Claudia Müller-Ebeling; Christian Rätsch, 2002.

Michael Slouber, Ph.D.
Associate Professor, South Asian Studies
Dept. of Liberal Studies
Western Washington University
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--

Nagaraj Paturi

 

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

 

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

 

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

 

 

 

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