[INDOLOGY] Fwd: Re: Soma and Amanita muscaria

Thu Nov 15 21:45:58 UTC 2018

Dear List,

I apologize for having dropped out of our conversation for a while.  After
recovering from the flu I found myself swamped by unfulfilled obligations.
Fortunately, I am able to return to our conversation now.  First, I will
attach a pdf file that includes my three Soma papers which have been
mentioned already.  Unfortunately, the librarian whom I asked to make these
pdfs for me made only one pdf file that included all three papers together
[I had assumed that he would make a pdf of each paper, but I guess he saved
himself some time].

Also, while I was sick in I bed, I ordered a copy of Matthew Clark's book
"The Tawny One", and when I received it I read it within a week   I
strongly recommend it to all list members.  He makes two main
points. First, he asserts and argues well that soma/haoma plant had
psychedelic/entheogenic properties,  Second he asserts and argues well that
there was not one soma/haoma plant, but rather that  there were many.  This
makes sense to me.

I am not an ethnobotanist, So I have found Clark's ethnobotanical
discussions very helpful.  He has good command of Vedic literature in
translation as well as good command of the secondary literature [he also
knows later Sanskrit well].  He surveys all of the major proposals that
attempt to identify the ur-soma/haoma plant and juice.

Like Mathew, I look forward to more discussion.

Best wishes,

George Thompson

On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 9:54 PM Matthew Clark via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Greetings, I am not sure if my last reply was posted or not. Just in case
> it wasn't, here are a few points in reply to previous questions. Best,
> Matthew Clark.
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: Matthew Clark <mahabongo at gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, Oct 16, 2018, 08:46
> Subject: Re: Re: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
> To: Mark Singleton <ms156 at soas.ac.uk>
>
>
> Greetings all, thanks for the responses. Addressing some of the points
> raised:
>
> 1. There are references in the RV (see my book) to "soma of the valleys,
> soma of the hills, soma of the rivers", etc., i.e. many somas. This is
> echoed not only in the Avesta but also in the materia medica of India. Soma
> was not one plant, it was many plants.
>
> 2. I think that the strongest argument against fly agaric is recent
> psychedelic history. Who eats or drinks fly-agaric in the West (or
> anywhere, apart from Siberia, corners of Afghanistan, and by the Objiway of
> North America)? Very few people do so (there are a few enthusiasts, of
> course: see my book). Many years ago I tried eating fly agaric: it was
> quite destabilizing. In over 40 years of global observation I have never
> come across a fly-agaric "movement". In contrast, as I mentioned, consider
> the enthusiasm for the classic tryptamines. This is not a "knock-out"
> argument, just a consideration of the weight of probabilities.
>
> 3. In soma rites, the concoction is usually consumed three times in a day.
>
> 4. The sound of vigorous pounding is amplified in the sound holes under
> the planks.
>
> 5. The soma rasa of the Vedas later becomes an internal amrita in yoga
> texts and elsewhere.
>
> 6. Although psychedelic plants are consumed occasionally in some tribal
> cultures of South Asia, I am not aware of any living psychedelic "cult" as
> such (any information on this point would be greatly appreciated). In my
> book I mention the living ayahuasca analogue cult run by Qalandar in Iran.
>
> More soon, no doubt. Matthew Clark.
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018, 23:51 Mark Singleton <ms156 at soas.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> -------- Forwarded Message --------
>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Soma and Amanita muscaria
>> Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2018 08:59:31 +0530
>> From: Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
>> <indology at list.indology.info>
>> Reply-To: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>> <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>> To: Michael Slouber <Michael.Slouber at wwu.edu> <Michael.Slouber at wwu.edu>
>> CC: Indology <indology at list.indology.info> <indology at list.indology.info>
>>
>> In Bhagavadgita, we have
>>
>> पुष्णामि चौषधीः सर्वाः सोमो भूत्वा रसात्मकः ॥ १५-१३॥
>>
>> This usage of the word Soma indicates that at least by the time of
>> composition of Gita, Soma has been viewed as the Rasa that provides the
>> common quality to all the (medicinal) plants.
>>
>> Even if this usage is viewed as the result of a semantic change from the
>> Vedic usage, there has to be a common semantic connection between the two
>> usages that lead to this semantic change.
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 15, 2018 at 8:05 AM Michael Slouber via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Just a note that is it certainly untrue that South Asia lacks living
>>> traditions involving consumption of psychedelic plants; shamans in Nepal,
>>> for example, have a rich and diverse tradition of using dozens of such
>>> plants.  On this, see the following excellent and heavily photo-documented
>>> book:  *Shamanism and Tantra in the Himalayas* by Claudia Müller-Ebeling;
>>> Christian Rätsch, 2002.
>>>
>>> Michael Slouber, Ph.D.
>>> Associate Professor, South Asian Studies
>>> Dept. of Liberal Studies
>>> Western Washington University
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>>
>> Director, Indic Academy of Sanskrit and Indological Studies.
>>
>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>
>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> INDOLOGY mailing list
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> committee)
> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or
> unsubscribe)
>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20181115/56a47957/attachment.htm>