[INDOLOGY] A terminological question

[Artur Karp]

Dear Prof. Lusthaus,

A greatly impressive show of truly impressive erudition - demonstrated by
selecting & quoting the equally erudite inputs of the MPS commentators *re*
kammāraputta and sūkaramaddava.

Nothing to add from my side.

However - the question of the basic question, and that is: how to call the
practice of making the translated texts as elegant as possible? Of - sort
of - beautifying them? Even at the cost of losing some of their original
meaning/purpose?

Hyperglossia - as suggested by Matthew Kapstein?

Artur Karp



2018-08-09 14:23 GMT+02:00 Dan Lusthaus <prajnapti at gmail.com>:

> Hi Jonathan,
>
> Points well taken. Making a translation readable is not as problematic as
> revamping an original Sanskrit text to fit some imagined “standard” that
> clearly a text’s author and transmitters were not committed to. Sometimes
> these infelicities would be clues to time and place if we understood them
> and didn’t efface them.
>
> In any event, as to Cunda, Malalasekera’s Dicti. of Pali Proper Names
> gives a pretty overview of the basic sources, root text and commentaries:
>
> —
> 1. Cunda.– A worker in metals (kammāraputta) living in Pāvā
> <http://www.aimwell.org/DPPN/pava.html>. When the Buddha reached Pāvā on
> his way to Kusinārā, he stayed in Cunda’s Mango grove. There Cunda visited
> him and invited him and the monks to a meal the next day. The meal
> consisted of sweet rice and cakes and tender pork (sūkaramaddava). At the
> meal the Buddha ordered that he alone should be served with sūkaramaddava,
> and that what was left over should be buried in a hole. This was the
> Buddha’s last meal, as very soon after it he developed dysentery (D.ii.126;
> Ud.viii.5). The Buddha, a little while before his death, gave special
> instructions to Ānanda that he should visit Cunda and reassure him by
> telling him that no blame at all attached to him and that he should feel no
> remorse, but should, on the contrary, rejoice, in that he had been able to
> give to the Buddha a meal which, in merit, far exceeded any other (D.ii.135
> f).
>
> The Suttanipāta <http://www.aimwell.org/DPPN/suttanipata.html> Commentary
> (SNA.i.159) mentions that, at this meal, Cunda provided golden vessels for
> the monks’ use; some made use of them, others did not. One monk stole a
> vessel and put it in his bag. Cunda noticed this but said nothing. Later,
> in the afternoon, he visited the Buddha and questioned him as to the
> different kinds of recluses (samaṇa) there were in the world. The Buddha
> taught him the Cunda Sutta <http://www.aimwell.org/DPPN/cunda_sutta.html>.
>
>
> The Commentary adds (p.166; also UdA.399) that Cunda reached no
> attainment, but merely had his doubts dispelled. The Dīghanikāya
> Commentary, however, says (DA.ii.568) that he became a Stream-winner at the
> first sight of the Buddha and built for him a vihāra at the Ambavana.
> This latter incident, probably, took place at an earlier visit of the
> Buddha, for we are told (D.iii.207) that while the Buddha was staying in
> Cunda’s Mango grove, he was invited by the Mallas to consecrate their new
> Mote-hall, Ubbhataka. He accepted the invitation, taught in the hall until
> late at night, and then requested Sāriputta to continue, which he did by
> teaching the Saṅgīti Sutta. This was soon after the death of Nigaṇṭha
> Nāṭaputta <http://www.aimwell.org/DPPN/vipassi_buddha.html> (D.iii.210).
>
> The Aṅguttaranikāya <http://www.aimwell.org/DPPN/anguttara_nikaya.html>
> (v.263 ff) mentions another conversation between the Buddha and Cunda. Cunda
> tells the Buddha that he approves of the methods of purification
> (soceyyāni) laid down by the brahmins of the west (Pacchābhūmakā
> <http://www.aimwell.org/DPPN/p.html#Pacchabhumaka>). The Buddha tells him
> of the teaching of the Noble Ones regarding the threefold defilement and
> purification of the body, the fourfold defilement and purification of the
> speech, and the threefold defilement and purification of the mind. Cunda
> accepts the Buddha’s explanations and declares himself his follower
> —
> The SNA introduces the “gold” side story.
>
> As for the term sūkara-maddava
>
> sūkara = pig,
> maddava = soft & tender (said of food taken by young women to preserve
> their good looks) DhsA 403 [from mudu, cf. PTS Pali-Eng Dict. p, 537]
>
> Likewise in SKT: sūkara = a boar, hog, pig, swine
>
> Cf. MW:
> sūkaragṛha = sū-kara—gṛha n. a pig-sty,
> saukarika = m. a boar hunter, pig-dealer, R. ; VarBṛS. ; Buddh.
>
>
> mārdava n. (ifc. f(ā). ) softness (lit. and fig.), pliancy, weakness,
> gentleness, kindness, leniency towards (with gen. e.g.
> mārdava-sarva-bhūtānām, leniency towards all beings),
>
> so in Skt, sūkara-mārdava would mean ‘tender pig-meat’ but also implies
> the leniency that Buddha extends to Cunda by reassuring him that the ill
> effects of the meal are not his fault.
>
> Another commentary story, however, has Buddha pass a different judgement
> on a different Cunda, and this story very likely was developed in reaction
> to the ‘overly forgiving Buddha’ of the parinibbana sutta by another group
> within the Sangha.
>
> (also in Malalasekera’s Dicti. of Pali Proper Names):
>
> 3. Cunda-sukārika.– A pork butcher near Veḷuvana. For forty-five years he
> plied his trade, killing pigs in such a way as to retain the flavour of the
> flesh unimpaired. When death approached he saw before him the fires of
> Avīci and roared with pain. For seven days he grunted like a pig, crawling
> on all fours, and no one could prevent him. The monks told the Buddha of
> the noises they had heard when passing the butcher’s house, and the Buddha
> explained how retribution had fallen on Cunda commensurate with his
> wickedness. DhA.i.105 ff.
>
> —
> Since Buddha did not keep kosher, why try avoid the fact that sūkara-maddava
> means ’tender pork”?
>
> Dan
>
> On Aug 9, 2018, at 5:16 AM, Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> A side note, not directly relevant to the terminological issue:
>
> I think that the question of what Cunda served the Buddha is not one
> likely to be decided on ideological grounds. Perhaps it is known what the
> social status of "truffles" was in Ancient North India, and that vis-a-vis
> the status of pork, but I do not know it, and I think it is a bit
> incautious for us to assume that this was necessarily a higher-status food
> just because it is for us (in general). There is, as I recall, considerable
> philological investigation of the identification of the Buddha's last meal,
> although I confess that I don't recall what the latest idea is, or whether
> it has been generally accepted by specialists. (I recall that Oskar von
> Hinüber wrote about it relatively recently, or at least I think I recall
> this...).
>
> As I said, however, this is a separate issue from that of "cleaning up"
> translations, and we might, in that sense, extend it to questions about
> tone and style as well: if something is roughly written, even
> "ungrammatical," is translating into grammatical and even smooth
> English/German etc. translation or does it too fall under the category you
> are discussing? (I recently worked on a Buddhist text in which the grammar
> in Skt was something of a mess, often impossible, although the meaning was
> quite clear. If i 'fix' it am I improving / raising its level?)
>
> best, Jonathan
>
> On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 10:47 AM, Artur Karp via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> > Artur's concern is ---
>>
>> --- certain terminological substitutes selected by the translators as
>> 'more elegant' effectively remove the early Buddhist sangha from the
>> original socio-economic context of its aims and activities.
>>
>> In the already classic example: the shift from 'smith' to 'goldsmith',
>> from 'hog's mincemeat' to 'truffles', locates, effectively, the Buddha and
>> his disciples in the world unknown to them.
>>
>> In their world Cunda is a village smith; he offers them shelter and a
>> local delicacy: minced pork.
>>
>> As a village artisan Cunda seems to represent the main social group
>> addressed by the Buddha's message: the people actively involved in the
>> process of change, civilizational change.
>>
>> As retold by some of the translators, the story drags the Buddha's name
>> into politics, in its local and, consequently, general manifestations.
>>
>> Cunda, a rich goldsmith (rare truffles in dishes offered to his noble
>> guests) becomes a natural addressee of the Buddha's message. By accepting
>> his invitation, the Buddha confirms Cunda's high status and, symbolically,
>> separates himself from other, less successful members of the community.
>>
>> There are many other - although not always so evident - examples of such
>> translatorial practices.
>>
>> The need to recognize similar textual traps, with their interpretative
>> temptations, is what makes translating the Mahaparibbana-sutta (in my case
>> - into Polish) a difficult but exciting project.
>>
>> Thanking for your comments, greetings & regards from over-hot Warsaw,
>>
>> Artur Karp
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 2018-08-08 17:49 GMT+02:00 Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info>:
>>
>>> Dear Birgit,
>>>
>>> Yes, perhaps I had in mind the way in which Pollock's usage has been
>>> extended in subsequent scholarship. E.g., Ashley Thompson, "Engendering the
>>> Buddhist State," pp. 32-36, "Hyperglossia and the DevarAja," where it is a
>>> question, within Khmer usage, of the replacement of indigenous Khmer names
>>> and terms with Sanskrit equivalents. And I think this sort of thing was
>>> Artur's concern.
>>>
>>> And I don't believe that Pollock's usage excluded this extension.
>>>
>>> Matthew
>>>
>>> Matthew Kapstein
>>> Directeur d'études,
>>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
>>>
>>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
>>> The University of Chicago
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
>>> Birgit Kellner via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 8, 2018 10:36:13 AM
>>> *To:* indology at list.indology.info
>>>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] A terminological question
>>>
>>>
>>> Pollock uses "hyperglossia" for a relationship between languages,
>>> though, as a special hierarchical case of diglossia, not for describing
>>> individual acts or habits of linguistic choice (which seems to be what the
>>> original question was after).
>>>
>>>
>>> Birgit Kellner
>>>
>>> Am 2018-08-08 um 11:01 schrieb Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY:
>>>
>>> I don't recall that Pollock limits it to translation. And it definitely
>>> refers to moving from a "lower" to a "higher" linguistic register, which is
>>> not quite what we mean by "euphemism".
>>>
>>> Matthew Kapstein
>>> Directeur d'études,
>>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
>>>
>>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
>>> The University of Chicago
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>>> <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 8, 2018 3:51:25 AM
>>> *To:* Matthew Kapstein
>>> *Cc:* Artur Karp; INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] A terminological question
>>>
>>> Does Prof. Pollock use it in the context of translation only?
>>>
>>> If it is general context of semantic change, 'euphemism' has similarity
>>> with this, except that the replaced word refers to an 'obscene',
>>> 'inauspicious', 'unparliamentary' meaning hence is considered to be crude
>>> or explicit usage.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Artur,
>>>
>>> The term "hyperglossia," as introduced by Pollock in his
>>> The Language of the Gods in the World of Men,
>>> refers to this phenomenon, though I am not sure how widespread this
>>> usage is. Pollock seems to have treated it as a neologism.
>>>
>>> If I understand just what you are talking about, James Strachey's
>>> translations of Freud -- e.g. his rendering of "das Ich" as "the ego" --
>>> may serve as a modern example. You may therefore find other terms for what
>>> you are looking for by digging into the critical literature on Strachey's
>>> translations.
>>>
>>> good luck,
>>> Matthew
>>>
>>> Matthew Kapstein
>>> Directeur d'études,
>>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
>>>
>>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
>>> The University of Chicago
>>> ------------------------------
>>> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
>>> Artur Karp via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 7, 2018 2:48:50 PM
>>> *To:* indology
>>> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] A terminological question
>>>
>>> Dear List,
>>>
>>> [From my main e-mail address]
>>>
>>> In my work with the Pali works - original texts and their translations -
>>> I come across traces of a peculiar practice.
>>>
>>> The translators tend, not infrequently, to supplant plain, ordinary,
>>> common terms with their more elegant, subtler lexical equivalents.
>>>
>>> There is a *Greek/Latin* *term* for this practice - but I cannot recall
>>> it.
>>>
>>> May I count on your help *re*?
>>>
>>> Artur Karp
>>> Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit and Pali (ret.)
>>> Chair of South Asian Studies
>>> University of Warsaw
>>> Poland
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>
>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>
>>>
>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>
>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>
>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>
>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>
>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>> --
>>> ----
>>> Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
>>> Director
>>> Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
>>> Austrian Academy of SciencesHollandstrasse 11 <https://maps.google.com/?q=Hollandstrasse+11&entry=gmail&source=g>-13/2
>>> A-1020 Vienna
>>> Austria
>>> Phone: +43-(0)1-51581-6420
>>> Fax: +43-(0)1-51581-6410http://ikga.oeaw.ac.at
>>>
>>>
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>>
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>
>
> --
> J. Silk
> Leiden University
> Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
> Matthias de Vrieshof 3
> <https://maps.google.com/?q=Matthias+de+Vrieshof+3&entry=gmail&source=g>,
> Room 0.05b
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>
> copies of my publications may be found at
> https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk
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