[INDOLOGY] A terminological question

Thu Aug 9 09:16:28 UTC 2018

A side note, not directly relevant to the terminological issue:

I think that the question of what Cunda served the Buddha is not one likely
to be decided on ideological grounds. Perhaps it is known what the social
status of "truffles" was in Ancient North India, and that vis-a-vis the
status of pork, but I do not know it, and I think it is a bit incautious
for us to assume that this was necessarily a higher-status food just
because it is for us (in general). There is, as I recall, considerable
philological investigation of the identification of the Buddha's last meal,
although I confess that I don't recall what the latest idea is, or whether
it has been generally accepted by specialists. (I recall that Oskar von
Hinüber wrote about it relatively recently, or at least I think I recall
this...).

As I said, however, this is a separate issue from that of "cleaning up"
translations, and we might, in that sense, extend it to questions about
tone and style as well: if something is roughly written, even
"ungrammatical," is translating into grammatical and even smooth
English/German etc. translation or does it too fall under the category you
are discussing? (I recently worked on a Buddhist text in which the grammar
in Skt was something of a mess, often impossible, although the meaning was
quite clear. If i 'fix' it am I improving / raising its level?)

best, Jonathan

On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 10:47 AM, Artur Karp via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> > Artur's concern is ---
>
> --- certain terminological substitutes selected by the translators as
> 'more elegant' effectively remove the early Buddhist sangha from the
> original socio-economic context of its aims and activities.
>
> In the already classic example: the shift from 'smith' to 'goldsmith',
> from 'hog's mincemeat' to 'truffles', locates, effectively, the Buddha and
> his disciples in the world unknown to them.
>
> In their world Cunda is a village smith; he offers them shelter and a
> local delicacy: minced pork.
>
> As a village artisan Cunda seems to represent the main social group
> addressed by the Buddha's message: the people actively involved in the
> process of change, civilizational change.
>
> As retold by some of the translators, the story drags the Buddha's name
> into politics, in its local and, consequently, general manifestations.
>
> Cunda, a rich goldsmith (rare truffles in dishes offered to his noble
> guests) becomes a natural addressee of the Buddha's message. By accepting
> his invitation, the Buddha confirms Cunda's high status and, symbolically,
> separates himself from other, less successful members of the community.
>
> There are many other - although not always so evident - examples of such
> translatorial practices.
>
> The need to recognize similar textual traps, with their interpretative
> temptations, is what makes translating the Mahaparibbana-sutta (in my case
> - into Polish) a difficult but exciting project.
>
> Thanking for your comments, greetings & regards from over-hot Warsaw,
>
> Artur Karp
>
>
>
>
>
> 2018-08-08 17:49 GMT+02:00 Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info>:
>
>> Dear Birgit,
>>
>>
>> Yes, perhaps I had in mind the way in which Pollock's usage has been
>> extended in subsequent scholarship. E.g., Ashley Thompson, "Engendering the
>> Buddhist State," pp. 32-36, "Hyperglossia and the DevarAja," where it is a
>> question, within Khmer usage, of the replacement of indigenous Khmer names
>> and terms with Sanskrit equivalents. And I think this sort of thing was
>> Artur's concern.
>>
>>
>> And I don't believe that Pollock's usage excluded this extension.
>>
>>
>> Matthew
>>
>>
>> Matthew Kapstein
>> Directeur d'études,
>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
>>
>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
>> The University of Chicago
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
>> Birgit Kellner via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 8, 2018 10:36:13 AM
>> *To:* indology at list.indology.info
>>
>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] A terminological question
>>
>>
>> Pollock uses "hyperglossia" for a relationship between languages, though,
>> as a special hierarchical case of diglossia, not for describing individual
>> acts or habits of linguistic choice (which seems to be what the original
>> question was after).
>>
>>
>> Birgit Kellner
>>
>> Am 2018-08-08 um 11:01 schrieb Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY:
>>
>> I don't recall that Pollock limits it to translation. And it definitely
>> refers to moving from a "lower" to a "higher" linguistic register, which is
>> not quite what we mean by "euphemism".
>>
>>
>> Matthew Kapstein
>> Directeur d'études,
>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
>>
>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
>> The University of Chicago
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>> <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 8, 2018 3:51:25 AM
>> *To:* Matthew Kapstein
>> *Cc:* Artur Karp; INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] A terminological question
>>
>> Does Prof. Pollock use it in the context of translation only?
>>
>> If it is general context of semantic change, 'euphemism' has similarity
>> with this, except that the replaced word refers to an 'obscene',
>> 'inauspicious', 'unparliamentary' meaning hence is considered to be crude
>> or explicit usage.
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Artur,
>>
>>
>> The term "hyperglossia," as introduced by Pollock in his
>>
>> The Language of the Gods in the World of Men,
>>
>> refers to this phenomenon, though I am not sure how widespread this usage
>> is. Pollock seems to have treated it as a neologism.
>>
>>
>> If I understand just what you are talking about, James Strachey's
>> translations of Freud -- e.g. his rendering of "das Ich" as "the ego" --
>> may serve as a modern example. You may therefore find other terms for what
>> you are looking for by digging into the critical literature on Strachey's
>> translations.
>>
>>
>> good luck,
>>
>> Matthew
>>
>>
>> Matthew Kapstein
>> Directeur d'études,
>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
>>
>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
>> The University of Chicago
>> ------------------------------
>> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
>> Artur Karp via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 7, 2018 2:48:50 PM
>> *To:* indology
>> *Subject:* [INDOLOGY] A terminological question
>>
>> Dear List,
>>
>> [From my main e-mail address]
>>
>> In my work with the Pali works - original texts and their translations -
>> I come across traces of a peculiar practice.
>>
>> The translators tend, not infrequently, to supplant plain, ordinary,
>> common terms with their more elegant, subtler lexical equivalents.
>>
>> There is a *Greek/Latin* *term* for this practice - but I cannot recall
>> it.
>>
>> May I count on your help *re*?
>>
>> Artur Karp
>> Senior Lecturer in Sanskrit and Pali (ret.)
>> Chair of South Asian Studies
>> University of Warsaw
>> Poland
>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>>
>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>
>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>>
>>
>> --
>> ----
>> Prof. Dr. Birgit Kellner
>> Director
>> Institute for the Cultural and Intellectual History of Asia
>> Austrian Academy of Sciences
>> Hollandstrasse 11-13/2
>> A-1020 Vienna
>> Austria
>> Phone: +43-(0)1-51581-6420
>> Fax: +43-(0)1-51581-6410http://ikga.oeaw.ac.at
>>
>>
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>
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-- 
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk

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