Hi Jonathan,Points well taken. Making a translation readable is not as problematic as revamping an original Sanskrit text to fit some imagined “standard” that clearly a text’s author and transmitters were not committed to. Sometimes these infelicities would be clues to time and place if we understood them and didn’t efface them.In any event, as to Cunda, Malalasekera’s Dicti. of Pali Proper Names gives a pretty overview of the basic sources, root text and commentaries:—1. Cunda.– A worker in metals (kammāraputta) living in Pāvā. When the Buddha reached Pāvā on his way to Kusinārā, he stayed in Cunda’s Mango grove. There Cunda visited him and invited him and the monks to a meal the next day. The meal consisted of sweet rice and cakes and tender pork (sūkaramaddava). At the meal the Buddha ordered that he alone should be served with sūkaramaddava, and that what was left over should be buried in a hole. This was the Buddha’s last meal, as very soon after it he developed dysentery (D.ii.126; Ud.viii.5). The Buddha, a little while before his death, gave special instructions to Ānanda that he should visit Cunda and reassure him by telling him that no blame at all attached to him and that he should feel no remorse, but should, on the contrary, rejoice, in that he had been able to give to the Buddha a meal which, in merit, far exceeded any other (D.ii.135 f).The Suttanipāta Commentary (SNA.i.159) mentions that, at this meal, Cunda provided golden vessels for the monks’ use; some made use of them, others did not. One monk stole a vessel and put it in his bag. Cunda noticed this but said nothing. Later, in the afternoon, he visited the Buddha and questioned him as to the different kinds of recluses (samaṇa) there were in the world. The Buddha taught him the Cunda Sutta.
The Commentary adds (p.166; also UdA.399) that Cunda reached no attainment, but merely had his doubts dispelled. The Dīghanikāya Commentary, however, says (DA.ii.568) that he became a Stream-winner at the first sight of the Buddha and built for him a vihāra at the Ambavana. This latter incident, probably, took place at an earlier visit of the Buddha, for we are told (D.iii.207) that while the Buddha was staying in Cunda’s Mango grove, he was invited by the Mallas to consecrate their new Mote-hall, Ubbhataka. He accepted the invitation, taught in the hall until late at night, and then requested Sāriputta to continue, which he did by teaching the Saṅgīti Sutta. This was soon after the death of Nigaṇṭha Nāṭaputta (D.iii.210).
The Aṅguttaranikāya (v.263 ff) mentions another conversation between the Buddha and Cunda. Cunda tells the Buddha that he approves of the methods of purification (soceyyāni) laid down by the brahmins of the west (Pacchābhūmakā). The Buddha tells him of the teaching of the Noble Ones regarding the threefold defilement and purification of the body, the fourfold defilement and purification of the speech, and the threefold defilement and purification of the mind. Cunda accepts the Buddha’s explanations and declares himself his follower
—The SNA introduces the “gold” side story.As for the term sūkara-maddavasūkara = pig,maddava = soft & tender (said of food taken by young women to preserve their good looks) DhsA 403 [from mudu, cf. PTS Pali-Eng Dict. p, 537]Likewise in SKT: sūkara = a boar, hog, pig, swineCf. MW:sūkaragṛha = sū-kara—gṛha n. a pig-sty,saukarika = m. a boar hunter, pig-dealer, R. ; VarBṛS. ; Buddh.
mārdava n. (ifc. f(ā). ) softness (lit. and fig.), pliancy, weakness, gentleness, kindness, leniency towards (with gen. e.g. mārdava-sarva-bhūtānām, leniency towards all beings),so in Skt, sūkara-mārdava would mean ‘tender pig-meat’ but also implies the leniency that Buddha extends to Cunda by reassuring him that the ill effects of the meal are not his fault.Another commentary story, however, has Buddha pass a different judgement on a different Cunda, and this story very likely was developed in reaction to the ‘overly forgiving Buddha’ of the parinibbana sutta by another group within the Sangha.(also in Malalasekera’s Dicti. of Pali Proper Names):3. Cunda-sukārika.– A pork butcher near Veḷuvana. For forty-five years he plied his trade, killing pigs in such a way as to retain the flavour of the flesh unimpaired. When death approached he saw before him the fires of Avīci and roared with pain. For seven days he grunted like a pig, crawling on all fours, and no one could prevent him. The monks told the Buddha of the noises they had heard when passing the butcher’s house, and the Buddha explained how retribution had fallen on Cunda commensurate with his wickedness. DhA.i.105 ff.—Since Buddha did not keep kosher, why try avoid the fact that sūkara-maddava means ’tender pork”?DanOn Aug 9, 2018, at 5:16 AM, Jonathan Silk via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> wrote:A side note, not directly relevant to the terminological issue:I think that the question of what Cunda served the Buddha is not one likely to be decided on ideological grounds. Perhaps it is known what the social status of "truffles" was in Ancient North India, and that vis-a-vis the status of pork, but I do not know it, and I think it is a bit incautious for us to assume that this was necessarily a higher-status food just because it is for us (in general). There is, as I recall, considerable philological investigation of the identification of the Buddha's last meal, although I confess that I don't recall what the latest idea is, or whether it has been generally accepted by specialists. (I recall that Oskar von Hinüber wrote about it relatively recently, or at least I think I recall this...).As I said, however, this is a separate issue from that of "cleaning up" translations, and we might, in that sense, extend it to questions about tone and style as well: if something is roughly written, even "ungrammatical," is translating into grammatical and even smooth English/German etc. translation or does it too fall under the category you are discussing? (I recently worked on a Buddhist text in which the grammar in Skt was something of a mess, often impossible, although the meaning was quite clear. If i 'fix' it am I improving / raising its level?)best, Jonathan______________________________On Thu, Aug 9, 2018 at 10:47 AM, Artur Karp via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> wrote:> Artur's concern is ------ certain terminological substitutes selected by the translators as 'more elegant' effectively remove the early Buddhist sangha from the original socio-economic context of its aims and activities.In the already classic example: the shift from 'smith' to 'goldsmith', from 'hog's mincemeat' to 'truffles', locates, effectively, the Buddha and his disciples in the world unknown to them.In their world Cunda is a village smith; he offers them shelter and a local delicacy: minced pork.As a village artisan Cunda seems to represent the main social group addressed by the Buddha's message: the people actively involved in the process of change, civilizational change.As retold by some of the translators, the story drags the Buddha's name into politics, in its local and, consequently, general manifestations.Cunda, a rich goldsmith (rare truffles in dishes offered to his noble guests) becomes a natural addressee of the Buddha's message. By accepting his invitation, the Buddha confirms Cunda's high status and, symbolically, separates himself from other, less successful members of the community.There are many other - although not always so evident - examples of such translatorial practices.The need to recognize similar textual traps, with their interpretative temptations, is what makes translating the Mahaparibbana-sutta (in my case - into Polish) a difficult but exciting project.Thanking for your comments, greetings & regards from over-hot Warsaw,Artur Karp2018-08-08 17:49 GMT+02:00 Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info>:Dear Birgit,
Yes, perhaps I had in mind the way in which Pollock's usage has been extended in subsequent scholarship. E.g., Ashley Thompson, "Engendering the Buddhist State," pp. 32-36, "Hyperglossia and the DevarAja," where it is a question, within Khmer usage, of the replacement of indigenous Khmer names and terms with Sanskrit equivalents. And I think this sort of thing was Artur's concern.
And I don't believe that Pollock's usage excluded this extension.
Matthew
Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'études,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces@list.indology.info > on behalf of Birgit Kellner via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info>
Sent: Wednesday, August 8, 2018 10:36:13 AM
To: indology@list.indology.info
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] A terminological questionPollock uses "hyperglossia" for a relationship between languages, though, as a special hierarchical case of diglossia, not for describing individual acts or habits of linguistic choice (which seems to be what the original question was after).
Birgit Kellner
Am 2018-08-08 um 11:01 schrieb Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY:
I don't recall that Pollock limits it to translation. And it definitely refers to moving from a "lower" to a "higher" linguistic register, which is not quite what we mean by "euphemism".
Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'études,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
From: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, August 8, 2018 3:51:25 AM
To: Matthew Kapstein
Cc: Artur Karp; INDOLOGY@list.indology.info
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] A terminological questionDoes Prof. Pollock use it in the context of translation only?
If it is general context of semantic change, 'euphemism' has similarity with this, except that the replaced word refers to an 'obscene', 'inauspicious', 'unparliamentary' meaning hence is considered to be crude or explicit usage.
On Wed, Aug 8, 2018 at 2:07 PM, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info> wrote:
Dear Artur,
The term "hyperglossia," as introduced by Pollock in hisThe Language of the Gods in the World of Men,refers to this phenomenon, though I am not sure how widespread this usage is. Pollock seems to have treated it as a neologism.
If I understand just what you are talking about, James Strachey's translations of Freud -- e.g. his rendering of "das Ich" as "the ego" -- may serve as a modern example. You may therefore find other terms for what you are looking for by digging into the critical literature on Strachey's translations.
good luck,Matthew
Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'études,
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes
Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces@list.indology.info > on behalf of Artur Karp via INDOLOGY <indology@list.indology.info>
Sent: Tuesday, August 7, 2018 2:48:50 PM
To: indology
Subject: [INDOLOGY] A terminological questionDear List,
[From my main e-mail address]
In my work with the Pali works - original texts and their translations - I come across traces of a peculiar practice.
The translators tend, not infrequently, to supplant plain, ordinary, common terms with their more elegant, subtler lexical equivalents.
There is a Greek/Latin term for this practice - but I cannot recall it.
May I count on your help re?
Artur KarpSenior Lecturer in Sanskrit and Pali (ret.)Chair of South Asian StudiesUniversity of WarsawPoland
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BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of Liberal Education,(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
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