[INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology

Thu Nov 17 17:53:26 UTC 2016

English translation of the content  provided by Jean Michel Delire from
Google translator:

The mathematics of the *Vedic* altar

Baudhāyana Śulbasūtra and his commentary Śulbadīpikā

Edited and translated by Jean-Michel DELIRE, Preface by Pierre-Sylvain
FILLIOZAT

Oriental Studies – Extreme

As its title indicates, this book offers a translation-edition Baudhayana
Śulbasūtra and its commentary the Śulbadīpikā composed by Dvārakānātha
before the sixteenth century. Part of the ritual literature of India, the
Śulbasūtras are treaties detailing the construction of altars, offering
tables, sacred enclosures, etc., necessary to the *Vedic sacrifices*.
Dating back to the last centuries before the Christian era, they show that
the Indian mathematical knowledge of that time was comparable to the
knowledge of contemporary civilizations in substance, but very different in
form, revealing its *oral *nature. This edition-translation is accompanied
by a detailed introduction situating mathematical knowledge of ancient
India in its historical evolution, since the end of the civilization of the
Indus to the classical period, and in its ritual context. To do this, the
investigation has not only considered the Baudhayana Śulbasūtra, but it was
extended to three other Śulbasūtras (by Apastamba, Manava and Katyayana)
edited and translated (SN Sen and AK Bag, Delhi, 1983) as well as
non-translated edition (D. Srinivasachar and VS Narasimhachar, Mysore,
1931) of one of the comments of the Apastamba Śulbasūtra, through which the
Śulbadīpikā could be dated.

(Highlighting mine)

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:13 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> I already gave the reason why it is justified to use the word 'Vedic
> Mathematics' in reference to S'ulba Sutras  and Chhandas.
>
> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Missed to  put the word 'Vedic Mathematics'
>>
>> I wanted to say,
>>
>> The following are samples for the use of the word "Vedic Mathematics" in
>> reference to the S'ulba Sutras and Chhandas. It goes without saying that I
>> need not be taken as subscribing to the ideas in these web pages or books
>> that I found on the first of the pages that I found through my random
>> search:
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:33 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> The following are samples for the use of the word in reference to the
>>> S'ulba Sutras and Chhandas. It goes without saying that I need not be taken
>>> as subscribing to the ideas in these web pages or books that I found on the
>>> first of the pages that I found through my random search:
>>>
>>> S'ulba sutras:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://vedicsciences.net/articles/vedic-mathematics.html
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Projects/Pearce/Chapters/Ch4_2.html
>>>
>>>
>>> Chhandas:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Vedic Mathematics Science and Technology (Ancient Wisdom Values of
>>> Pingala Chandas Sutram) Hardcover – 1 Apr 2014
>>>
>>>
>>> by Dr. S.K. Kapoor and Ved Ratan
>>> <https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&text=Dr.+S.K.+Kapoor+and+Ved+Ratan&search-alias=books-uk&field-author=Dr.+S.K.+Kapoor+and+Ved+Ratan&sort=relevancerank>
>>> (Author)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mathematics-Science-Technology-Anci
>>> ent-Pingala/dp/B00PKHXUIM
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Pingal Krit Chhandah Sutram (The Prosody Of Pingala) [With Applications
>>> Of Vedic Mathematics] Paperback – 2013
>>>
>>>
>>> by Kapildev Dwivedi
>>> <http://www.amazon.in/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&field-author=Kapildev+Dwivedi&search-alias=stripbooks> (Author),
>>> Shyamlal Singh
>>> <http://www.amazon.in/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_2?ie=UTF8&field-author=Shyamlal+Singh&search-alias=stripbooks>
>>> (Author)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.amazon.in/Chhandah-Prosody-Pingala-Applications-M
>>> athematics/dp/8171248772
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:26 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Jean,
>>>>
>>>> Since you said "Dear Colleagues"
>>>>
>>>> I am forwarding your message to the list.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> From: Jean-Michel Delire <jmdelire at ulb.ac.be>
>>>> Date: Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 12:54 PM
>>>> Subject: re:Re: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology
>>>> To: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Colleagues,
>>>>
>>>> I don't agree with what has just been said (see below) about maths of
>>>> the sulbasutra and even of the chandas. As far as I know, they have never
>>>> been called Vedic and I have myself, and many other researchers I know,
>>>> always been very cautious to make the distinction. See the title of my
>>>> recent book http://www.droz.org/eur/fr/6416-9782600013826.html by
>>>> instance.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Jean Michel
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >Patrick,
>>>> >
>>>> >>The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's
>>>> >attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I include
>>>> >myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this type
>>>> of
>>>> >maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'.
>>>> >
>>>> >Do you have and take to your interlocutors the speed math techniques
>>>> book
>>>> >called 'Vedic Maths" the 'Vedic' of which is already dead horse or the
>>>> >maths in books like s'ulba sutras, Chandas  etc. ? If you have the
>>>> latter
>>>> >in mind , maths in s'ulba sutras , for example, is called Vedic
>>>> because it
>>>> >is Maths related to Vedic rituals of yajna; maths in Chandas is called
>>>> >'Vedic' because it is related to the science of metres (meters) in the
>>>> >Vedas.
>>>> >
>>>> >On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 6:51 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <
>>>> nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>>>> >wrote:
>>>> >
>>>> >> > The irony of modernization and popularization of ?Vedic astrology?
>>>> means
>>>> >> that *most *practitioners these days would rely on their PC or mobile
>>>> >> applications to generate horoscopes without truly understanding the
>>>> science
>>>> >> behind them as their predecessors, *at least some*, did.
>>>> (Highlighting
>>>> >> mine)
>>>> >>
>>>> >> ----- In the place of 'most' a more diligent student of culture
>>>> would have
>>>> >> used 'many' and such a student would have avoided unnecessary
>>>> quantifiers
>>>> >> like 'at least some'. There are several different levels of 'users'
>>>> of
>>>> >> astrology. Some would only 'read' a ready horoscope, some would know
>>>> how to
>>>> >> make one. Among those who make, some would know why they have to do
>>>> what
>>>> >> they do, some others mechanically follow the procedure of making
>>>> learnt
>>>> >> from a human teacher or a book. Among those who know why they do
>>>> what they
>>>> >> do, some might know the depths of the siddhaanta to be able to make
>>>> their
>>>> >> own new theories within it , some may not be able to do that. Some
>>>> may be
>>>> >> able to explain to a curious Indologist in English (without knowing
>>>> or
>>>> >> bothering about what that Indologist might use that knowledge for),
>>>> some
>>>> >> may not be able to converse with an outsider in his language. The
>>>> situation
>>>> >> is similar in all fields of knowledge world over. People with higher
>>>> and
>>>> >> higher levels of knowledge are smaller and smaller in number. A
>>>> mature
>>>> >> observer takes such a situation for granted without being hasty or
>>>> >> judgemental about the observed.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 4:17 AM, Bill Mak <bill.m.mak at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>> >>
>>>> >>> In connection to contemporary "field works? on ?Indian astrology,?
>>>> the
>>>> >>> works by Yano and Guenzi are helpful. There must be scholarly works
>>>> on the
>>>> >>> subject in English which I am not aware of. Yano?s work is
>>>> particularly
>>>> >>> interesting as it documented the transition from traditional Indian
>>>> >>> astrology to modern Indian astrology where some astrologers were
>>>> still
>>>> >>> capable of preparing the Pañc??ga in the traditional ways instead of
>>>> >>> relying on the data from government observatory. The irony of
>>>> modernization
>>>> >>> and popularization of ?Vedic astrology? means that most
>>>> practitioners these
>>>> >>> days would rely on their PC or mobile applications to generate
>>>> horoscopes
>>>> >>> without truly understanding the science behind them as their
>>>> predecessors,
>>>> >>> at least some, did.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Yano Michio. 1992. *Senseijutsu-tachi-no Indo* ??????????. ??:
>>>> ?????.
>>>> >>> Guenzi, Caterina. 2013. *Le Discours Du Destin*. Paris: CNRS
>>>> éditions.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 3:13 PM, patrick mccartney <
>>>> psdmccartney at gmail.com>
>>>> >>> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> Dear Bill, I agree with you completely about the fascinating role of
>>>> >>> things like the planetarium in negotiations over identity and
>>>> history. My
>>>> >>> frustration is specific, and likely a result of the precarious
>>>> nature of my
>>>> >>> current method. In my humble experience, cyber-ethnography does not
>>>> really
>>>> >>> generate the type of rapport required to effectively conduct 'field
>>>> work'.
>>>> >>> There doesn't seem to be a critical mass of 'vedic astrologers' in
>>>> my city,
>>>> >>> so I feel forced in some way to reach out through the Internet and
>>>> 'cold
>>>> >>> call'.  If funds were made available I would certainly aim to
>>>> include trips
>>>> >>> to the planetarium with the intention of conducting interviews with
>>>> >>> visitors. This would certainly yield less bland results.
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> On 17 Nov 2016 12:04 AM, "Bill Mak" <bill.m.mak at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>>> Dear Patrick,
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> I believe rather than simply bland, "uncritical absorption of the/a
>>>> >>>> Vedic narrative,? the examples of ISKCON ?Vedic Planetarium? and
>>>> ?Vedic
>>>> >>>> model of universe? I mentioned earlier illustrates quite
>>>> tellingly, at
>>>> >>>> least in this particular instance, what the intention was. To me,
>>>> it seems
>>>> >>>> to be part of an ongoing negotiation of the role of Indian culture
>>>> in the
>>>> >>>> modern world and an alternative narrative to the one created in
>>>> the Western
>>>> >>>> culture, one that Indians today both love and hate. In doing so,
>>>> some
>>>> >>>> sought to reclaim their identities as defined by themselves and
>>>> not others.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> In this particular case, if Vedic is defined historically as the
>>>> Western
>>>> >>>> historians and philologists do, there is no question that ?Vedic
>>>> >>>> Planetarium? is a pure misnomer. There was not even any planet
>>>> beside Sun
>>>> >>>> and Moon mentioned explicitly in the early Vedic corpus and the
>>>> >>>> Ved??gajyoti?a had no discussion of planets. The Pur??ic cosmology
>>>> is a
>>>> >>>> hodgepodge of ideas from various sources, both foreign and
>>>> indigenous and
>>>> >>>> across a long stretch of time. But this model of the universe was
>>>> created
>>>> >>>> in reaction to the Western model, to the one created by the
>>>> Greeks, e.g.
>>>> >>>> Ptolemy?s geocentric model, and eventually the development of the
>>>> model of
>>>> >>>> universe in Western astronomy up to the present day ? a powerful
>>>> image to
>>>> >>>> represent science and progress, which many today sought to align
>>>> their
>>>> >>>> values and belief-system to .
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> What ISKCON tried to achieve was to say to the readers that just
>>>> like in
>>>> >>>> the West one has the history of science, so does India. The
>>>> proponents of
>>>> >>>> the so-called ?Vedic science? suggest that not only India has
>>>> science, it
>>>> >>>> is a different science based on a possibly superior authority,
>>>> i.e., a
>>>> >>>> spiritual, all-encompassing revelation beyond human reasoning
>>>> based on the
>>>> >>>> ?Vedas," rather than philology and history based on fragments of
>>>> the
>>>> >>>> reality interpreted by humans. Of course, the arguments they
>>>> constructed
>>>> >>>> were practically entirely in Western terms, and the evidences they
>>>> use are
>>>> >>>> so methodologically and philologically unsound that most scholars
>>>> do not
>>>> >>>> consider them worthy of even consideration and decry them as
>>>> >>>> pseudo-science. This seems to applies from more ludicrous claims
>>>> such as
>>>> >>>> ?Vedic astrophysics? or ?Vedic aeronautical science?, to the
>>>> seemingly more
>>>> >>>> benign ?Vedic mathematics? and ?Vedic astronomy?.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> --
>>>> >>>> Bill M. Mak
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW)
>>>> >>>> New York University
>>>> >>>> 15 East 84th Street
>>>> >>>> New York, NY 10028
>>>> >>>> US
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
>>>> >>>> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501
>>>> >>>> Japan
>>>> >>>> ?606-8501 ??????????
>>>> >>>> ???????????
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Tel:+81-75-753-6961
>>>> >>>> Fax:+81-75-753-6903
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> copies of my publications may be found at:
>>>> >>>> http://www.billmak.com
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 4:29 AM, patrick mccartney <
>>>> psdmccartney at gmail.com>
>>>> >>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Some cyber-ethnography I am conducting tentatively supports the
>>>> claim
>>>> >>>> that "Vedic Astrology" is usually interpreted to mean precisely,
>>>> >>>> "traditional Indian astrology". One interesting thing is that,
>>>> even though
>>>> >>>> my interlocutors (westerners for the most part)  almost all assert
>>>> it means
>>>> >>>> the above; when pressed to define what they consider the 'Vedic'
>>>> part of
>>>> >>>> the phrase to more specifically mean, the typical answer is
>>>> overwhelmingly:
>>>> >>>> "I don't really know". If asked to discuss the difference between
>>>> the
>>>> >>>> astrological, ie predictive systems, or the historical, parallel
>>>> >>>> development of these systems, even some people who claim to be
>>>> >>>> 'professional Vedic astrologers' seem unable to clearly
>>>> differentiate them.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's
>>>> >>>> attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I
>>>> include
>>>> >>>> myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this
>>>> type of
>>>> >>>> maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> These anecdotes would at least point towards support of an
>>>> analysis that
>>>> >>>> 'vedic', for the most part, does simply refer to a vague,
>>>> >>>> 'historico-mythical' past that is 'pure' and not influenced by
>>>> premodern,
>>>> >>>> transcultural flows of ideas.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> But, it still does not help me, nor my interlocutors, to really
>>>> pin down
>>>> >>>> what a 'Vedic-X' is . Apart from "it's really old", which =
>>>> 'better'.
>>>> >>>> However,  I find this conclusion of sorts frustratingly bland.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> Regardless, it is this seemingly uncritical absorption of the/a
>>>> Vedic
>>>> >>>> narrative, and its narritival power to infuse the past, present
>>>> and future
>>>> >>>> with meaning and potential that intrigues me most. This is at both
>>>> micro
>>>> >>>> and macro scales of analysis.
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>> On 16 Nov 2016 7:17 PM, "Martin Gansten" <martin.gansten at pbhome.se
>>>> >
>>>> >>>> wrote:
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>> Bill,
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> I have read and re-read that section, and searched for various
>>>> phrases
>>>> >>>>> within the book as a whole (searchable PDF files are a boon), but
>>>> I can't
>>>> >>>>> find any mention of 'Vedic astrology' or anything like it.
>>>> Dikshit seems to
>>>> >>>>> have a western academic understanding of 'Vedic' as a historical
>>>> period,
>>>> >>>>> and he claims that the 'seeds' of a predictive system are present
>>>> in
>>>> >>>>> Atharvajyoti?a, but he is also very clear that such a system is
>>>> not the one
>>>> >>>>> based on the twelve-sign zodiac, although he thinks it 'probable'
>>>> that the
>>>> >>>>> latter system, when it was imported into India, was influenced by
>>>> the
>>>> >>>>> parallel, indigenous system. (Which undoubtedly it was, if
>>>> perhaps not to
>>>> >>>>> the extent that Dikshit would have liked to think. The nak?atras
>>>> are used
>>>> >>>>> in hor?, after all.) This is stated at the beginning of p. 100.
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> In my view this is quite different from the development that we
>>>> have
>>>> >>>>> seen over the past few decades, where practitioners themselves
>>>> label all
>>>> >>>>> Indian astrology (often including the T?jika school) as 'Vedic',
>>>> typically
>>>> >>>>> without any idea of that label referring to a particular
>>>> historical period
>>>> >>>>> -- if it is used in any historical sense, it is with reference to
>>>> a vague,
>>>> >>>>> mythical past. 'Vedic' is used here simply in the sense of
>>>> 'traditional
>>>> >>>>> Indian', the implied idea being a tradition that is not only
>>>> ancient and
>>>> >>>>> unbroken, but essentially unchanged (and, as Robert has pointed
>>>> out,
>>>> >>>>> sanctioned by Brahmanic authority).
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Jean-Michel's mention of so-called Vedic mathematics in this
>>>> context
>>>> >>>>> seems very relevant; does anyone know when that designation first
>>>> appears?
>>>> >>>>> Also, of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't
>>>> think
>>>> >>>>> anyone has yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or
>>>> have they?).
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Martin
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:45, skrev Bill Mak:
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did
>>>> refer to
>>>> >>>>>> horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of
>>>> astrology? under
>>>> >>>>>> ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). Things
>>>> might have
>>>> >>>>>> come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have
>>>> certainly been
>>>> >>>>>> around.
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>> Bill
>>>> >>>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>>
>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's
>>>> managing
>>>> >>>>> committee)
>>>> >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>> options
>>>> >>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>>
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>>> >>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>> >>> committee)
>>>> >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>> options or
>>>> >>> unsubscribe)
>>>> >>>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >> --
>>>> >> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>> >>
>>>> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>> >>
>>>> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >--
>>>> >Nagaraj Paturi
>>>> >
>>>> >Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>> >
>>>> >Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>> >
>>>> >FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>> >
>>>> >(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>
>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>
>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>
>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>
>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>
>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>
>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>
>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>
>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>
>
>
>

-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

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