[INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology

Thu Nov 17 09:43:29 UTC 2016

I already gave the reason why it is justified to use the word 'Vedic
Mathematics' in reference to S'ulba Sutras  and Chhandas.

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:42 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Missed to  put the word 'Vedic Mathematics'
>
> I wanted to say,
>
> The following are samples for the use of the word "Vedic Mathematics" in
> reference to the S'ulba Sutras and Chhandas. It goes without saying that I
> need not be taken as subscribing to the ideas in these web pages or books
> that I found on the first of the pages that I found through my random
> search:
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:33 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The following are samples for the use of the word in reference to the
>> S'ulba Sutras and Chhandas. It goes without saying that I need not be taken
>> as subscribing to the ideas in these web pages or books that I found on the
>> first of the pages that I found through my random search:
>>
>> S'ulba sutras:
>>
>>
>> http://vedicsciences.net/articles/vedic-mathematics.html
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Projects/Pearce/Chapters/Ch4_2.html
>>
>>
>> Chhandas:
>>
>>
>>
>> Vedic Mathematics Science and Technology (Ancient Wisdom Values of
>> Pingala Chandas Sutram) Hardcover – 1 Apr 2014
>>
>>
>> by Dr. S.K. Kapoor and Ved Ratan
>> <https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&text=Dr.+S.K.+Kapoor+and+Ved+Ratan&search-alias=books-uk&field-author=Dr.+S.K.+Kapoor+and+Ved+Ratan&sort=relevancerank>
>> (Author)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mathematics-Science-Technology-Anci
>> ent-Pingala/dp/B00PKHXUIM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Pingal Krit Chhandah Sutram (The Prosody Of Pingala) [With Applications
>> Of Vedic Mathematics] Paperback – 2013
>>
>>
>> by Kapildev Dwivedi
>> <http://www.amazon.in/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&field-author=Kapildev+Dwivedi&search-alias=stripbooks> (Author),
>> Shyamlal Singh
>> <http://www.amazon.in/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_2?ie=UTF8&field-author=Shyamlal+Singh&search-alias=stripbooks>
>> (Author)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> http://www.amazon.in/Chhandah-Prosody-Pingala-Applications-M
>> athematics/dp/8171248772
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:26 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Jean,
>>>
>>> Since you said "Dear Colleagues"
>>>
>>> I am forwarding your message to the list.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: Jean-Michel Delire <jmdelire at ulb.ac.be>
>>> Date: Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 12:54 PM
>>> Subject: re:Re: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology
>>> To: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Colleagues,
>>>
>>> I don't agree with what has just been said (see below) about maths of
>>> the sulbasutra and even of the chandas. As far as I know, they have never
>>> been called Vedic and I have myself, and many other researchers I know,
>>> always been very cautious to make the distinction. See the title of my
>>> recent book http://www.droz.org/eur/fr/6416-9782600013826.html by
>>> instance.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Jean Michel
>>>
>>>
>>> >Patrick,
>>> >
>>> >>The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's
>>> >attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I include
>>> >myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this type
>>> of
>>> >maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'.
>>> >
>>> >Do you have and take to your interlocutors the speed math techniques
>>> book
>>> >called 'Vedic Maths" the 'Vedic' of which is already dead horse or the
>>> >maths in books like s'ulba sutras, Chandas  etc. ? If you have the
>>> latter
>>> >in mind , maths in s'ulba sutras , for example, is called Vedic because
>>> it
>>> >is Maths related to Vedic rituals of yajna; maths in Chandas is called
>>> >'Vedic' because it is related to the science of metres (meters) in the
>>> >Vedas.
>>> >
>>> >On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 6:51 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <
>>> nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>>> >wrote:
>>> >
>>> >> > The irony of modernization and popularization of ?Vedic astrology?
>>> means
>>> >> that *most *practitioners these days would rely on their PC or mobile
>>> >> applications to generate horoscopes without truly understanding the
>>> science
>>> >> behind them as their predecessors, *at least some*, did. (Highlighting
>>> >> mine)
>>> >>
>>> >> ----- In the place of 'most' a more diligent student of culture would
>>> have
>>> >> used 'many' and such a student would have avoided unnecessary
>>> quantifiers
>>> >> like 'at least some'. There are several different levels of 'users' of
>>> >> astrology. Some would only 'read' a ready horoscope, some would know
>>> how to
>>> >> make one. Among those who make, some would know why they have to do
>>> what
>>> >> they do, some others mechanically follow the procedure of making
>>> learnt
>>> >> from a human teacher or a book. Among those who know why they do what
>>> they
>>> >> do, some might know the depths of the siddhaanta to be able to make
>>> their
>>> >> own new theories within it , some may not be able to do that. Some
>>> may be
>>> >> able to explain to a curious Indologist in English (without knowing or
>>> >> bothering about what that Indologist might use that knowledge for),
>>> some
>>> >> may not be able to converse with an outsider in his language. The
>>> situation
>>> >> is similar in all fields of knowledge world over. People with higher
>>> and
>>> >> higher levels of knowledge are smaller and smaller in number. A mature
>>> >> observer takes such a situation for granted without being hasty or
>>> >> judgemental about the observed.
>>> >>
>>> >> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 4:17 AM, Bill Mak <bill.m.mak at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >>> In connection to contemporary "field works? on ?Indian astrology,?
>>> the
>>> >>> works by Yano and Guenzi are helpful. There must be scholarly works
>>> on the
>>> >>> subject in English which I am not aware of. Yano?s work is
>>> particularly
>>> >>> interesting as it documented the transition from traditional Indian
>>> >>> astrology to modern Indian astrology where some astrologers were
>>> still
>>> >>> capable of preparing the Pañc??ga in the traditional ways instead of
>>> >>> relying on the data from government observatory. The irony of
>>> modernization
>>> >>> and popularization of ?Vedic astrology? means that most
>>> practitioners these
>>> >>> days would rely on their PC or mobile applications to generate
>>> horoscopes
>>> >>> without truly understanding the science behind them as their
>>> predecessors,
>>> >>> at least some, did.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Yano Michio. 1992. *Senseijutsu-tachi-no Indo* ??????????. ??: ?????.
>>> >>> Guenzi, Caterina. 2013. *Le Discours Du Destin*. Paris: CNRS
>>> éditions.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 3:13 PM, patrick mccartney <
>>> psdmccartney at gmail.com>
>>> >>> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Dear Bill, I agree with you completely about the fascinating role of
>>> >>> things like the planetarium in negotiations over identity and
>>> history. My
>>> >>> frustration is specific, and likely a result of the precarious
>>> nature of my
>>> >>> current method. In my humble experience, cyber-ethnography does not
>>> really
>>> >>> generate the type of rapport required to effectively conduct 'field
>>> work'.
>>> >>> There doesn't seem to be a critical mass of 'vedic astrologers' in
>>> my city,
>>> >>> so I feel forced in some way to reach out through the Internet and
>>> 'cold
>>> >>> call'.  If funds were made available I would certainly aim to
>>> include trips
>>> >>> to the planetarium with the intention of conducting interviews with
>>> >>> visitors. This would certainly yield less bland results.
>>> >>>
>>> >>> On 17 Nov 2016 12:04 AM, "Bill Mak" <bill.m.mak at gmail.com> wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>>> Dear Patrick,
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> I believe rather than simply bland, "uncritical absorption of the/a
>>> >>>> Vedic narrative,? the examples of ISKCON ?Vedic Planetarium? and
>>> ?Vedic
>>> >>>> model of universe? I mentioned earlier illustrates quite tellingly,
>>> at
>>> >>>> least in this particular instance, what the intention was. To me,
>>> it seems
>>> >>>> to be part of an ongoing negotiation of the role of Indian culture
>>> in the
>>> >>>> modern world and an alternative narrative to the one created in the
>>> Western
>>> >>>> culture, one that Indians today both love and hate. In doing so,
>>> some
>>> >>>> sought to reclaim their identities as defined by themselves and not
>>> others.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> In this particular case, if Vedic is defined historically as the
>>> Western
>>> >>>> historians and philologists do, there is no question that ?Vedic
>>> >>>> Planetarium? is a pure misnomer. There was not even any planet
>>> beside Sun
>>> >>>> and Moon mentioned explicitly in the early Vedic corpus and the
>>> >>>> Ved??gajyoti?a had no discussion of planets. The Pur??ic cosmology
>>> is a
>>> >>>> hodgepodge of ideas from various sources, both foreign and
>>> indigenous and
>>> >>>> across a long stretch of time. But this model of the universe was
>>> created
>>> >>>> in reaction to the Western model, to the one created by the Greeks,
>>> e.g.
>>> >>>> Ptolemy?s geocentric model, and eventually the development of the
>>> model of
>>> >>>> universe in Western astronomy up to the present day ? a powerful
>>> image to
>>> >>>> represent science and progress, which many today sought to align
>>> their
>>> >>>> values and belief-system to .
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> What ISKCON tried to achieve was to say to the readers that just
>>> like in
>>> >>>> the West one has the history of science, so does India. The
>>> proponents of
>>> >>>> the so-called ?Vedic science? suggest that not only India has
>>> science, it
>>> >>>> is a different science based on a possibly superior authority,
>>> i.e., a
>>> >>>> spiritual, all-encompassing revelation beyond human reasoning based
>>> on the
>>> >>>> ?Vedas," rather than philology and history based on fragments of the
>>> >>>> reality interpreted by humans. Of course, the arguments they
>>> constructed
>>> >>>> were practically entirely in Western terms, and the evidences they
>>> use are
>>> >>>> so methodologically and philologically unsound that most scholars
>>> do not
>>> >>>> consider them worthy of even consideration and decry them as
>>> >>>> pseudo-science. This seems to applies from more ludicrous claims
>>> such as
>>> >>>> ?Vedic astrophysics? or ?Vedic aeronautical science?, to the
>>> seemingly more
>>> >>>> benign ?Vedic mathematics? and ?Vedic astronomy?.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> --
>>> >>>> Bill M. Mak
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW)
>>> >>>> New York University
>>> >>>> 15 East 84th Street
>>> >>>> New York, NY 10028
>>> >>>> US
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
>>> >>>> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501
>>> >>>> Japan
>>> >>>> ?606-8501 ??????????
>>> >>>> ???????????
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Tel:+81-75-753-6961
>>> >>>> Fax:+81-75-753-6903
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> copies of my publications may be found at:
>>> >>>> http://www.billmak.com
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 4:29 AM, patrick mccartney <
>>> psdmccartney at gmail.com>
>>> >>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Some cyber-ethnography I am conducting tentatively supports the
>>> claim
>>> >>>> that "Vedic Astrology" is usually interpreted to mean precisely,
>>> >>>> "traditional Indian astrology". One interesting thing is that, even
>>> though
>>> >>>> my interlocutors (westerners for the most part)  almost all assert
>>> it means
>>> >>>> the above; when pressed to define what they consider the 'Vedic'
>>> part of
>>> >>>> the phrase to more specifically mean, the typical answer is
>>> overwhelmingly:
>>> >>>> "I don't really know". If asked to discuss the difference between
>>> the
>>> >>>> astrological, ie predictive systems, or the historical, parallel
>>> >>>> development of these systems, even some people who claim to be
>>> >>>> 'professional Vedic astrologers' seem unable to clearly
>>> differentiate them.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's
>>> >>>> attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I
>>> include
>>> >>>> myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this
>>> type of
>>> >>>> maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> These anecdotes would at least point towards support of an analysis
>>> that
>>> >>>> 'vedic', for the most part, does simply refer to a vague,
>>> >>>> 'historico-mythical' past that is 'pure' and not influenced by
>>> premodern,
>>> >>>> transcultural flows of ideas.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> But, it still does not help me, nor my interlocutors, to really pin
>>> down
>>> >>>> what a 'Vedic-X' is . Apart from "it's really old", which =
>>> 'better'.
>>> >>>> However,  I find this conclusion of sorts frustratingly bland.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> Regardless, it is this seemingly uncritical absorption of the/a
>>> Vedic
>>> >>>> narrative, and its narritival power to infuse the past, present and
>>> future
>>> >>>> with meaning and potential that intrigues me most. This is at both
>>> micro
>>> >>>> and macro scales of analysis.
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>> On 16 Nov 2016 7:17 PM, "Martin Gansten" <martin.gansten at pbhome.se>
>>> >>>> wrote:
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>> Bill,
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> I have read and re-read that section, and searched for various
>>> phrases
>>> >>>>> within the book as a whole (searchable PDF files are a boon), but
>>> I can't
>>> >>>>> find any mention of 'Vedic astrology' or anything like it. Dikshit
>>> seems to
>>> >>>>> have a western academic understanding of 'Vedic' as a historical
>>> period,
>>> >>>>> and he claims that the 'seeds' of a predictive system are present
>>> in
>>> >>>>> Atharvajyoti?a, but he is also very clear that such a system is
>>> not the one
>>> >>>>> based on the twelve-sign zodiac, although he thinks it 'probable'
>>> that the
>>> >>>>> latter system, when it was imported into India, was influenced by
>>> the
>>> >>>>> parallel, indigenous system. (Which undoubtedly it was, if perhaps
>>> not to
>>> >>>>> the extent that Dikshit would have liked to think. The nak?atras
>>> are used
>>> >>>>> in hor?, after all.) This is stated at the beginning of p. 100.
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> In my view this is quite different from the development that we
>>> have
>>> >>>>> seen over the past few decades, where practitioners themselves
>>> label all
>>> >>>>> Indian astrology (often including the T?jika school) as 'Vedic',
>>> typically
>>> >>>>> without any idea of that label referring to a particular
>>> historical period
>>> >>>>> -- if it is used in any historical sense, it is with reference to
>>> a vague,
>>> >>>>> mythical past. 'Vedic' is used here simply in the sense of
>>> 'traditional
>>> >>>>> Indian', the implied idea being a tradition that is not only
>>> ancient and
>>> >>>>> unbroken, but essentially unchanged (and, as Robert has pointed
>>> out,
>>> >>>>> sanctioned by Brahmanic authority).
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Jean-Michel's mention of so-called Vedic mathematics in this
>>> context
>>> >>>>> seems very relevant; does anyone know when that designation first
>>> appears?
>>> >>>>> Also, of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't
>>> think
>>> >>>>> anyone has yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or
>>> have they?).
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Martin
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:45, skrev Bill Mak:
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did
>>> refer to
>>> >>>>>> horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of astrology?
>>> under
>>> >>>>>> ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). Things
>>> might have
>>> >>>>>> come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have
>>> certainly been
>>> >>>>>> around.
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>> Bill
>>> >>>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>>
>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> >>>>> committee)
>>> >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>> options
>>> >>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> _______________________________________________
>>> >>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> >>> committee)
>>> >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>> options or
>>> >>> unsubscribe)
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> Nagaraj Paturi
>>> >>
>>> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>> >>
>>> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>> >>
>>> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>> >>
>>> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >--
>>> >Nagaraj Paturi
>>> >
>>> >Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>> >
>>> >Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>> >
>>> >FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>> >
>>> >(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>
>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>
>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>
>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>
>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>
>
>
>

-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

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