[INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology

Thu Nov 17 09:12:51 UTC 2016

Missed to  put the word 'Vedic Mathematics'

I wanted to say,

The following are samples for the use of the word "Vedic Mathematics" in
reference to the S'ulba Sutras and Chhandas. It goes without saying that I
need not be taken as subscribing to the ideas in these web pages or books
that I found on the first of the pages that I found through my random
search:

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:33 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> The following are samples for the use of the word in reference to the
> S'ulba Sutras and Chhandas. It goes without saying that I need not be taken
> as subscribing to the ideas in these web pages or books that I found on the
> first of the pages that I found through my random search:
>
> S'ulba sutras:
>
>
> http://vedicsciences.net/articles/vedic-mathematics.html
>
>
>
> http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Projects/Pearce/Chapters/Ch4_2.html
>
>
> Chhandas:
>
>
>
> Vedic Mathematics Science and Technology (Ancient Wisdom Values of Pingala
> Chandas Sutram) Hardcover – 1 Apr 2014
>
>
> by Dr. S.K. Kapoor and Ved Ratan
> <https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&text=Dr.+S.K.+Kapoor+and+Ved+Ratan&search-alias=books-uk&field-author=Dr.+S.K.+Kapoor+and+Ved+Ratan&sort=relevancerank>
> (Author)
>
>
>
>
>
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mathematics-Science-
> Technology-Ancient-Pingala/dp/B00PKHXUIM
>
>
>
>
>
> Pingal Krit Chhandah Sutram (The Prosody Of Pingala) [With Applications Of
> Vedic Mathematics] Paperback – 2013
>
>
> by Kapildev Dwivedi
> <http://www.amazon.in/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&field-author=Kapildev+Dwivedi&search-alias=stripbooks> (Author),
> Shyamlal Singh
> <http://www.amazon.in/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_2?ie=UTF8&field-author=Shyamlal+Singh&search-alias=stripbooks>
> (Author)
>
>
>
>
>
> http://www.amazon.in/Chhandah-Prosody-Pingala-Applications-
> Mathematics/dp/8171248772
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:26 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear Jean,
>>
>> Since you said "Dear Colleagues"
>>
>> I am forwarding your message to the list.
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Jean-Michel Delire <jmdelire at ulb.ac.be>
>> Date: Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 12:54 PM
>> Subject: re:Re: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology
>> To: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>>
>>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>> I don't agree with what has just been said (see below) about maths of the
>> sulbasutra and even of the chandas. As far as I know, they have never been
>> called Vedic and I have myself, and many other researchers I know, always
>> been very cautious to make the distinction. See the title of my recent book
>> http://www.droz.org/eur/fr/6416-9782600013826.html by instance.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Jean Michel
>>
>>
>> >Patrick,
>> >
>> >>The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's
>> >attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I include
>> >myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this type of
>> >maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'.
>> >
>> >Do you have and take to your interlocutors the speed math techniques book
>> >called 'Vedic Maths" the 'Vedic' of which is already dead horse or the
>> >maths in books like s'ulba sutras, Chandas  etc. ? If you have the latter
>> >in mind , maths in s'ulba sutras , for example, is called Vedic because
>> it
>> >is Maths related to Vedic rituals of yajna; maths in Chandas is called
>> >'Vedic' because it is related to the science of metres (meters) in the
>> >Vedas.
>> >
>> >On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 6:51 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com
>> >
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >> > The irony of modernization and popularization of ?Vedic astrology?
>> means
>> >> that *most *practitioners these days would rely on their PC or mobile
>> >> applications to generate horoscopes without truly understanding the
>> science
>> >> behind them as their predecessors, *at least some*, did. (Highlighting
>> >> mine)
>> >>
>> >> ----- In the place of 'most' a more diligent student of culture would
>> have
>> >> used 'many' and such a student would have avoided unnecessary
>> quantifiers
>> >> like 'at least some'. There are several different levels of 'users' of
>> >> astrology. Some would only 'read' a ready horoscope, some would know
>> how to
>> >> make one. Among those who make, some would know why they have to do
>> what
>> >> they do, some others mechanically follow the procedure of making learnt
>> >> from a human teacher or a book. Among those who know why they do what
>> they
>> >> do, some might know the depths of the siddhaanta to be able to make
>> their
>> >> own new theories within it , some may not be able to do that. Some may
>> be
>> >> able to explain to a curious Indologist in English (without knowing or
>> >> bothering about what that Indologist might use that knowledge for),
>> some
>> >> may not be able to converse with an outsider in his language. The
>> situation
>> >> is similar in all fields of knowledge world over. People with higher
>> and
>> >> higher levels of knowledge are smaller and smaller in number. A mature
>> >> observer takes such a situation for granted without being hasty or
>> >> judgemental about the observed.
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 4:17 AM, Bill Mak <bill.m.mak at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>> In connection to contemporary "field works? on ?Indian astrology,? the
>> >>> works by Yano and Guenzi are helpful. There must be scholarly works
>> on the
>> >>> subject in English which I am not aware of. Yano?s work is
>> particularly
>> >>> interesting as it documented the transition from traditional Indian
>> >>> astrology to modern Indian astrology where some astrologers were still
>> >>> capable of preparing the Pañc??ga in the traditional ways instead of
>> >>> relying on the data from government observatory. The irony of
>> modernization
>> >>> and popularization of ?Vedic astrology? means that most practitioners
>> these
>> >>> days would rely on their PC or mobile applications to generate
>> horoscopes
>> >>> without truly understanding the science behind them as their
>> predecessors,
>> >>> at least some, did.
>> >>>
>> >>> Yano Michio. 1992. *Senseijutsu-tachi-no Indo* ??????????. ??: ?????.
>> >>> Guenzi, Caterina. 2013. *Le Discours Du Destin*. Paris: CNRS éditions.
>> >>>
>> >>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 3:13 PM, patrick mccartney <
>> psdmccartney at gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Dear Bill, I agree with you completely about the fascinating role of
>> >>> things like the planetarium in negotiations over identity and
>> history. My
>> >>> frustration is specific, and likely a result of the precarious nature
>> of my
>> >>> current method. In my humble experience, cyber-ethnography does not
>> really
>> >>> generate the type of rapport required to effectively conduct 'field
>> work'.
>> >>> There doesn't seem to be a critical mass of 'vedic astrologers' in my
>> city,
>> >>> so I feel forced in some way to reach out through the Internet and
>> 'cold
>> >>> call'.  If funds were made available I would certainly aim to include
>> trips
>> >>> to the planetarium with the intention of conducting interviews with
>> >>> visitors. This would certainly yield less bland results.
>> >>>
>> >>> On 17 Nov 2016 12:04 AM, "Bill Mak" <bill.m.mak at gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Dear Patrick,
>> >>>>
>> >>>> I believe rather than simply bland, "uncritical absorption of the/a
>> >>>> Vedic narrative,? the examples of ISKCON ?Vedic Planetarium? and
>> ?Vedic
>> >>>> model of universe? I mentioned earlier illustrates quite tellingly,
>> at
>> >>>> least in this particular instance, what the intention was. To me, it
>> seems
>> >>>> to be part of an ongoing negotiation of the role of Indian culture
>> in the
>> >>>> modern world and an alternative narrative to the one created in the
>> Western
>> >>>> culture, one that Indians today both love and hate. In doing so, some
>> >>>> sought to reclaim their identities as defined by themselves and not
>> others.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> In this particular case, if Vedic is defined historically as the
>> Western
>> >>>> historians and philologists do, there is no question that ?Vedic
>> >>>> Planetarium? is a pure misnomer. There was not even any planet
>> beside Sun
>> >>>> and Moon mentioned explicitly in the early Vedic corpus and the
>> >>>> Ved??gajyoti?a had no discussion of planets. The Pur??ic cosmology
>> is a
>> >>>> hodgepodge of ideas from various sources, both foreign and
>> indigenous and
>> >>>> across a long stretch of time. But this model of the universe was
>> created
>> >>>> in reaction to the Western model, to the one created by the Greeks,
>> e.g.
>> >>>> Ptolemy?s geocentric model, and eventually the development of the
>> model of
>> >>>> universe in Western astronomy up to the present day ? a powerful
>> image to
>> >>>> represent science and progress, which many today sought to align
>> their
>> >>>> values and belief-system to .
>> >>>>
>> >>>> What ISKCON tried to achieve was to say to the readers that just
>> like in
>> >>>> the West one has the history of science, so does India. The
>> proponents of
>> >>>> the so-called ?Vedic science? suggest that not only India has
>> science, it
>> >>>> is a different science based on a possibly superior authority, i.e.,
>> a
>> >>>> spiritual, all-encompassing revelation beyond human reasoning based
>> on the
>> >>>> ?Vedas," rather than philology and history based on fragments of the
>> >>>> reality interpreted by humans. Of course, the arguments they
>> constructed
>> >>>> were practically entirely in Western terms, and the evidences they
>> use are
>> >>>> so methodologically and philologically unsound that most scholars do
>> not
>> >>>> consider them worthy of even consideration and decry them as
>> >>>> pseudo-science. This seems to applies from more ludicrous claims
>> such as
>> >>>> ?Vedic astrophysics? or ?Vedic aeronautical science?, to the
>> seemingly more
>> >>>> benign ?Vedic mathematics? and ?Vedic astronomy?.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> --
>> >>>> Bill M. Mak
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW)
>> >>>> New York University
>> >>>> 15 East 84th Street
>> >>>> New York, NY 10028
>> >>>> US
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
>> >>>> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501
>> >>>> Japan
>> >>>> ?606-8501 ??????????
>> >>>> ???????????
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Tel:+81-75-753-6961
>> >>>> Fax:+81-75-753-6903
>> >>>>
>> >>>> copies of my publications may be found at:
>> >>>> http://www.billmak.com
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 4:29 AM, patrick mccartney <
>> psdmccartney at gmail.com>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Some cyber-ethnography I am conducting tentatively supports the claim
>> >>>> that "Vedic Astrology" is usually interpreted to mean precisely,
>> >>>> "traditional Indian astrology". One interesting thing is that, even
>> though
>> >>>> my interlocutors (westerners for the most part)  almost all assert
>> it means
>> >>>> the above; when pressed to define what they consider the 'Vedic'
>> part of
>> >>>> the phrase to more specifically mean, the typical answer is
>> overwhelmingly:
>> >>>> "I don't really know". If asked to discuss the difference between the
>> >>>> astrological, ie predictive systems, or the historical, parallel
>> >>>> development of these systems, even some people who claim to be
>> >>>> 'professional Vedic astrologers' seem unable to clearly
>> differentiate them.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's
>> >>>> attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I
>> include
>> >>>> myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this
>> type of
>> >>>> maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> These anecdotes would at least point towards support of an analysis
>> that
>> >>>> 'vedic', for the most part, does simply refer to a vague,
>> >>>> 'historico-mythical' past that is 'pure' and not influenced by
>> premodern,
>> >>>> transcultural flows of ideas.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> But, it still does not help me, nor my interlocutors, to really pin
>> down
>> >>>> what a 'Vedic-X' is . Apart from "it's really old", which = 'better'.
>> >>>> However,  I find this conclusion of sorts frustratingly bland.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> Regardless, it is this seemingly uncritical absorption of the/a Vedic
>> >>>> narrative, and its narritival power to infuse the past, present and
>> future
>> >>>> with meaning and potential that intrigues me most. This is at both
>> micro
>> >>>> and macro scales of analysis.
>> >>>>
>> >>>> On 16 Nov 2016 7:17 PM, "Martin Gansten" <martin.gansten at pbhome.se>
>> >>>> wrote:
>> >>>>
>> >>>>> Bill,
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> I have read and re-read that section, and searched for various
>> phrases
>> >>>>> within the book as a whole (searchable PDF files are a boon), but I
>> can't
>> >>>>> find any mention of 'Vedic astrology' or anything like it. Dikshit
>> seems to
>> >>>>> have a western academic understanding of 'Vedic' as a historical
>> period,
>> >>>>> and he claims that the 'seeds' of a predictive system are present in
>> >>>>> Atharvajyoti?a, but he is also very clear that such a system is not
>> the one
>> >>>>> based on the twelve-sign zodiac, although he thinks it 'probable'
>> that the
>> >>>>> latter system, when it was imported into India, was influenced by
>> the
>> >>>>> parallel, indigenous system. (Which undoubtedly it was, if perhaps
>> not to
>> >>>>> the extent that Dikshit would have liked to think. The nak?atras
>> are used
>> >>>>> in hor?, after all.) This is stated at the beginning of p. 100.
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> In my view this is quite different from the development that we have
>> >>>>> seen over the past few decades, where practitioners themselves
>> label all
>> >>>>> Indian astrology (often including the T?jika school) as 'Vedic',
>> typically
>> >>>>> without any idea of that label referring to a particular historical
>> period
>> >>>>> -- if it is used in any historical sense, it is with reference to a
>> vague,
>> >>>>> mythical past. 'Vedic' is used here simply in the sense of
>> 'traditional
>> >>>>> Indian', the implied idea being a tradition that is not only
>> ancient and
>> >>>>> unbroken, but essentially unchanged (and, as Robert has pointed out,
>> >>>>> sanctioned by Brahmanic authority).
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Jean-Michel's mention of so-called Vedic mathematics in this context
>> >>>>> seems very relevant; does anyone know when that designation first
>> appears?
>> >>>>> Also, of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't
>> think
>> >>>>> anyone has yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or
>> have they?).
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Martin
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:45, skrev Bill Mak:
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>> Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did
>> refer to
>> >>>>>> horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of astrology?
>> under
>> >>>>>> ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). Things
>> might have
>> >>>>>> come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have
>> certainly been
>> >>>>>> around.
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>> Bill
>> >>>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>>
>> >>>>> _______________________________________________
>> >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> >>>>> committee)
>> >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>> options
>> >>>>> or unsubscribe)
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>>
>> >>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> >>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>> >>> committee)
>> >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>> options or
>> >>> unsubscribe)
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Nagaraj Paturi
>> >>
>> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>> >>
>> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>> >>
>> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>> >>
>> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >--
>> >Nagaraj Paturi
>> >
>> >Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>> >
>> >Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>> >
>> >FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>> >
>> >(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>
>
>
>

-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

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