[INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology

Thu Nov 17 09:03:43 UTC 2016

The following are samples for the use of the word in reference to the
S'ulba Sutras and Chhandas. It goes without saying that I need not be taken
as subscribing to the ideas in these web pages or books that I found on the
first of the pages that I found through my random search:

S'ulba sutras:

http://vedicsciences.net/articles/vedic-mathematics.html

http://www-history.mcs.st-and.ac.uk/Projects/Pearce/Chapters/Ch4_2.html

Chhandas:

Vedic Mathematics Science and Technology (Ancient Wisdom Values of Pingala
Chandas Sutram) Hardcover – 1 Apr 2014

by Dr. S.K. Kapoor and Ved Ratan
<https://www.amazon.co.uk/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&text=Dr.+S.K.+Kapoor+and+Ved+Ratan&search-alias=books-uk&field-author=Dr.+S.K.+Kapoor+and+Ved+Ratan&sort=relevancerank>
(Author)

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mathematics-Science-Technology-Ancient-Pingala/dp/B00PKHXUIM

Pingal Krit Chhandah Sutram (The Prosody Of Pingala) [With Applications Of
Vedic Mathematics] Paperback – 2013

by Kapildev Dwivedi
<http://www.amazon.in/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_1?ie=UTF8&field-author=Kapildev+Dwivedi&search-alias=stripbooks>
(Author),
Shyamlal Singh
<http://www.amazon.in/s/ref=dp_byline_sr_book_2?ie=UTF8&field-author=Shyamlal+Singh&search-alias=stripbooks>
(Author)

http://www.amazon.in/Chhandah-Prosody-Pingala-Applications-Mathematics/dp/8171248772

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:26 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear Jean,
>
> Since you said "Dear Colleagues"
>
> I am forwarding your message to the list.
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Jean-Michel Delire <jmdelire at ulb.ac.be>
> Date: Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 12:54 PM
> Subject: re:Re: [INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology
> To: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>
>
> Dear Colleagues,
>
> I don't agree with what has just been said (see below) about maths of the
> sulbasutra and even of the chandas. As far as I know, they have never been
> called Vedic and I have myself, and many other researchers I know, always
> been very cautious to make the distinction. See the title of my recent book
> http://www.droz.org/eur/fr/6416-9782600013826.html by instance.
>
> Best,
>
> Jean Michel
>
>
> >Patrick,
> >
> >>The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's
> >attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I include
> >myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this type of
> >maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'.
> >
> >Do you have and take to your interlocutors the speed math techniques book
> >called 'Vedic Maths" the 'Vedic' of which is already dead horse or the
> >maths in books like s'ulba sutras, Chandas  etc. ? If you have the latter
> >in mind , maths in s'ulba sutras , for example, is called Vedic because it
> >is Maths related to Vedic rituals of yajna; maths in Chandas is called
> >'Vedic' because it is related to the science of metres (meters) in the
> >Vedas.
> >
> >On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 6:51 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >> > The irony of modernization and popularization of ?Vedic astrology?
> means
> >> that *most *practitioners these days would rely on their PC or mobile
> >> applications to generate horoscopes without truly understanding the
> science
> >> behind them as their predecessors, *at least some*, did. (Highlighting
> >> mine)
> >>
> >> ----- In the place of 'most' a more diligent student of culture would
> have
> >> used 'many' and such a student would have avoided unnecessary
> quantifiers
> >> like 'at least some'. There are several different levels of 'users' of
> >> astrology. Some would only 'read' a ready horoscope, some would know
> how to
> >> make one. Among those who make, some would know why they have to do what
> >> they do, some others mechanically follow the procedure of making learnt
> >> from a human teacher or a book. Among those who know why they do what
> they
> >> do, some might know the depths of the siddhaanta to be able to make
> their
> >> own new theories within it , some may not be able to do that. Some may
> be
> >> able to explain to a curious Indologist in English (without knowing or
> >> bothering about what that Indologist might use that knowledge for), some
> >> may not be able to converse with an outsider in his language. The
> situation
> >> is similar in all fields of knowledge world over. People with higher and
> >> higher levels of knowledge are smaller and smaller in number. A mature
> >> observer takes such a situation for granted without being hasty or
> >> judgemental about the observed.
> >>
> >> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 4:17 AM, Bill Mak <bill.m.mak at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> In connection to contemporary "field works? on ?Indian astrology,? the
> >>> works by Yano and Guenzi are helpful. There must be scholarly works on
> the
> >>> subject in English which I am not aware of. Yano?s work is particularly
> >>> interesting as it documented the transition from traditional Indian
> >>> astrology to modern Indian astrology where some astrologers were still
> >>> capable of preparing the Pañc??ga in the traditional ways instead of
> >>> relying on the data from government observatory. The irony of
> modernization
> >>> and popularization of ?Vedic astrology? means that most practitioners
> these
> >>> days would rely on their PC or mobile applications to generate
> horoscopes
> >>> without truly understanding the science behind them as their
> predecessors,
> >>> at least some, did.
> >>>
> >>> Yano Michio. 1992. *Senseijutsu-tachi-no Indo* ??????????. ??: ?????.
> >>> Guenzi, Caterina. 2013. *Le Discours Du Destin*. Paris: CNRS éditions.
> >>>
> >>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 3:13 PM, patrick mccartney <psdmccartney at gmail.com
> >
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Dear Bill, I agree with you completely about the fascinating role of
> >>> things like the planetarium in negotiations over identity and history.
> My
> >>> frustration is specific, and likely a result of the precarious nature
> of my
> >>> current method. In my humble experience, cyber-ethnography does not
> really
> >>> generate the type of rapport required to effectively conduct 'field
> work'.
> >>> There doesn't seem to be a critical mass of 'vedic astrologers' in my
> city,
> >>> so I feel forced in some way to reach out through the Internet and
> 'cold
> >>> call'.  If funds were made available I would certainly aim to include
> trips
> >>> to the planetarium with the intention of conducting interviews with
> >>> visitors. This would certainly yield less bland results.
> >>>
> >>> On 17 Nov 2016 12:04 AM, "Bill Mak" <bill.m.mak at gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Dear Patrick,
> >>>>
> >>>> I believe rather than simply bland, "uncritical absorption of the/a
> >>>> Vedic narrative,? the examples of ISKCON ?Vedic Planetarium? and
> ?Vedic
> >>>> model of universe? I mentioned earlier illustrates quite tellingly, at
> >>>> least in this particular instance, what the intention was. To me, it
> seems
> >>>> to be part of an ongoing negotiation of the role of Indian culture in
> the
> >>>> modern world and an alternative narrative to the one created in the
> Western
> >>>> culture, one that Indians today both love and hate. In doing so, some
> >>>> sought to reclaim their identities as defined by themselves and not
> others.
> >>>>
> >>>> In this particular case, if Vedic is defined historically as the
> Western
> >>>> historians and philologists do, there is no question that ?Vedic
> >>>> Planetarium? is a pure misnomer. There was not even any planet beside
> Sun
> >>>> and Moon mentioned explicitly in the early Vedic corpus and the
> >>>> Ved??gajyoti?a had no discussion of planets. The Pur??ic cosmology is
> a
> >>>> hodgepodge of ideas from various sources, both foreign and indigenous
> and
> >>>> across a long stretch of time. But this model of the universe was
> created
> >>>> in reaction to the Western model, to the one created by the Greeks,
> e.g.
> >>>> Ptolemy?s geocentric model, and eventually the development of the
> model of
> >>>> universe in Western astronomy up to the present day ? a powerful
> image to
> >>>> represent science and progress, which many today sought to align their
> >>>> values and belief-system to .
> >>>>
> >>>> What ISKCON tried to achieve was to say to the readers that just like
> in
> >>>> the West one has the history of science, so does India. The
> proponents of
> >>>> the so-called ?Vedic science? suggest that not only India has
> science, it
> >>>> is a different science based on a possibly superior authority, i.e., a
> >>>> spiritual, all-encompassing revelation beyond human reasoning based
> on the
> >>>> ?Vedas," rather than philology and history based on fragments of the
> >>>> reality interpreted by humans. Of course, the arguments they
> constructed
> >>>> were practically entirely in Western terms, and the evidences they
> use are
> >>>> so methodologically and philologically unsound that most scholars do
> not
> >>>> consider them worthy of even consideration and decry them as
> >>>> pseudo-science. This seems to applies from more ludicrous claims such
> as
> >>>> ?Vedic astrophysics? or ?Vedic aeronautical science?, to the
> seemingly more
> >>>> benign ?Vedic mathematics? and ?Vedic astronomy?.
> >>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Bill M. Mak
> >>>>
> >>>> Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW)
> >>>> New York University
> >>>> 15 East 84th Street
> >>>> New York, NY 10028
> >>>> US
> >>>>
> >>>> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
> >>>> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto 606-8501
> >>>> Japan
> >>>> ?606-8501 ??????????
> >>>> ???????????
> >>>>
> >>>> Tel:+81-75-753-6961
> >>>> Fax:+81-75-753-6903
> >>>>
> >>>> copies of my publications may be found at:
> >>>> http://www.billmak.com
> >>>>
> >>>> On Nov 16, 2016, at 4:29 AM, patrick mccartney <
> psdmccartney at gmail.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> Some cyber-ethnography I am conducting tentatively supports the claim
> >>>> that "Vedic Astrology" is usually interpreted to mean precisely,
> >>>> "traditional Indian astrology". One interesting thing is that, even
> though
> >>>> my interlocutors (westerners for the most part)  almost all assert it
> means
> >>>> the above; when pressed to define what they consider the 'Vedic' part
> of
> >>>> the phrase to more specifically mean, the typical answer is
> overwhelmingly:
> >>>> "I don't really know". If asked to discuss the difference between the
> >>>> astrological, ie predictive systems, or the historical, parallel
> >>>> development of these systems, even some people who claim to be
> >>>> 'professional Vedic astrologers' seem unable to clearly differentiate
> them.
> >>>>
> >>>> The same can be said for my tentative investigations into people's
> >>>> attitudes toward 'vedic maths'. Most people, and to be honest I
> include
> >>>> myself in this group, seem unable to clearly articulate what this
> type of
> >>>> maths is meant to be, and how it is any different from 'maths'.
> >>>>
> >>>> These anecdotes would at least point towards support of an analysis
> that
> >>>> 'vedic', for the most part, does simply refer to a vague,
> >>>> 'historico-mythical' past that is 'pure' and not influenced by
> premodern,
> >>>> transcultural flows of ideas.
> >>>>
> >>>> But, it still does not help me, nor my interlocutors, to really pin
> down
> >>>> what a 'Vedic-X' is . Apart from "it's really old", which = 'better'.
> >>>> However,  I find this conclusion of sorts frustratingly bland.
> >>>>
> >>>> Regardless, it is this seemingly uncritical absorption of the/a Vedic
> >>>> narrative, and its narritival power to infuse the past, present and
> future
> >>>> with meaning and potential that intrigues me most. This is at both
> micro
> >>>> and macro scales of analysis.
> >>>>
> >>>> On 16 Nov 2016 7:17 PM, "Martin Gansten" <martin.gansten at pbhome.se>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Bill,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have read and re-read that section, and searched for various
> phrases
> >>>>> within the book as a whole (searchable PDF files are a boon), but I
> can't
> >>>>> find any mention of 'Vedic astrology' or anything like it. Dikshit
> seems to
> >>>>> have a western academic understanding of 'Vedic' as a historical
> period,
> >>>>> and he claims that the 'seeds' of a predictive system are present in
> >>>>> Atharvajyoti?a, but he is also very clear that such a system is not
> the one
> >>>>> based on the twelve-sign zodiac, although he thinks it 'probable'
> that the
> >>>>> latter system, when it was imported into India, was influenced by the
> >>>>> parallel, indigenous system. (Which undoubtedly it was, if perhaps
> not to
> >>>>> the extent that Dikshit would have liked to think. The nak?atras are
> used
> >>>>> in hor?, after all.) This is stated at the beginning of p. 100.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> In my view this is quite different from the development that we have
> >>>>> seen over the past few decades, where practitioners themselves label
> all
> >>>>> Indian astrology (often including the T?jika school) as 'Vedic',
> typically
> >>>>> without any idea of that label referring to a particular historical
> period
> >>>>> -- if it is used in any historical sense, it is with reference to a
> vague,
> >>>>> mythical past. 'Vedic' is used here simply in the sense of
> 'traditional
> >>>>> Indian', the implied idea being a tradition that is not only ancient
> and
> >>>>> unbroken, but essentially unchanged (and, as Robert has pointed out,
> >>>>> sanctioned by Brahmanic authority).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Jean-Michel's mention of so-called Vedic mathematics in this context
> >>>>> seems very relevant; does anyone know when that designation first
> appears?
> >>>>> Also, of course, Dagmar's reference to ?yurveda, though I don't think
> >>>>> anyone has yet decided to call that system 'Vedic medicine' (or have
> they?).
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Martin
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Den 2016-11-15 kl. 21:45, skrev Bill Mak:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Martin, not exactly. This was precisely my point. Dikshit did refer
> to
> >>>>>> horoscopy under Vedic astrology. See ?J?taka branch of astrology?
> under
> >>>>>> ?Atharva jyoti?a? in the section Veda?ga (Vol.1 p.97-98). Things
> might have
> >>>>>> come to the forefront in recent time, but such ideas have certainly
> been
> >>>>>> around.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Bill
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
> >>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
> >>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> >>>>> committee)
> >>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
> options
> >>>>> or unsubscribe)
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> INDOLOGY mailing list
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> >>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
> >>> committee)
> >>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
> or
> >>> unsubscribe)
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Nagaraj Paturi
> >>
> >> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
> >>
> >> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
> >>
> >> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
> >>
> >> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >--
> >Nagaraj Paturi
> >
> >Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
> >
> >Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
> >
> >FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
> >
> >(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>
>
>
>

-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

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