[INDOLOGY] 'Vedic' astrology (was: bhakti)

Tue Nov 15 04:06:00 UTC 2016

Sharing the snap shot of a book from the first page of the heap of hits for
वैदिक ज्योतिष. it has "पूर्वी ज्योतिष प्रणाली ( भारतीय या वैदिक ज्योतिष के
रूप में प्रचलित ) ". It uses words सायना निरयना ( with printer's devils)
for greater accuracy. Most of these 'Hindi' pages have the English Vedic
Astrology in brackets after the Hindi वैदिक ज्योतिष. That itself makes it
clear what the source of the Hindi वैदिक ज्योतिष is.

Patrick, your mentioning the internet and the web world itself shows who
the communicators and target audience are. I should have probably repeated
my more nuanced words from my other posts that  the 'educated'
(western/modern educated) among Indians are among the target audience
(apart from the विदेशी लोग and विदेशी देशी लोग.)

When I said "Brahmin and non-Brahmin contemporary  busy practitioners do
not even need this English word or its Indian language forms such as Vaidik
or Vaidika", I had the non-internet scenario in mind. For instance, if a
general client starts out to visit a traditional Indian astrologer, he
says, मै पंडित जी के यहां होकर आऊंगा or something like that but does not
use the word वैदिक ज्योतिष. This पंडित जी does not use words like वैदिक
ज्योतिष on his sign board if at all he puts up one. Even in south India,
one does not say, ವೈದಿಕ ಜ್ಯೊತಿಷ್ಯಕ್ಕಾಗಿ  ಹೊಗುತ್ತಾ ಇದ್ದೀನಿ  or something
like that. Similarly sign boards in south India, of a traditional Indian
astrologer do not contain words like ವೈದಿಕ  ಜ್ಯೊತಿಷ್ಯ .

Now, tribal jyotishya:

Patrick, I think most of the Indologists probably are aware of the presence
of tribal soothsayer /fortune teller character either male or female in
classical Indian narrative literature.

Most of the Indologists during their visits to India might have seen the
actual soothsaying /fortune telling performances/ sessions of tribal
soothsayers /fortune tellers.

But what I was talking about was a recent development , later even to my
contribution of the encyclopaedia entry
https://www.academia.edu/8612777/_Fortune_Tellers_in_South_Asian_Folklore_an_Encyclopaedia_Routledge_230-232._Margaret_Mills_et_al._ed_New_York._2003

Tribal soothsayers/fortune tellers are putting up advertisements in print
and electronic media, giving a city address for consultation. It even says
" We are the genuine tribals ('Koya doralam', koya is the name of a tribe
Koya doralam = lit. we are the Koya kings, meaning we are the Koya
people) " Their using the Sanskrit word jyotishya(m) is similar to the
tribal medicine practitioners using the word vaidya(m) to be able to
communicate to the non-tribal audience.

This is part of many other developments with regard to the 'urbanization'
of tribals, particularly that of the practitioners of tribal medicine,
tribal fortune telling and other tribal occult practices which have been
popular with the urban Indian people from centuries.

On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 5:55 AM, patrick mccartney <psdmccartney at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Nagaraj,
>
> I'm fascinated by your insights into the heterogenous nature of jyotiṣa.
> Particularly the claim regarding Tribal jyotiṣa. Are you able to share any
> more detail on this? This seems like a great topic for a paper. It seems as
> if western practitioners and their client base are the only ones using the
> term 'vedic astrology'. However, a quick search of google for 'vedic
> astrology india' shows several examples of Indian-based astrologers that
> claim to use and identify with the term 'vedic astrology' - for instance  -
> http://www.indastro.com/ - now, perhaps they are based in India but cater
> to a western clientele? Or perhaps, those based in NYC only cater to
> videsilog? But even if one searches for 'वैदिक ज्योतिष' it brings up a heap
> of hits. So your claim that this "is being done by the western circles of
> the practice and the English tag 'Vedic' is needed by them and is used by
> them. Brahmin and non-Brahmin contemporary  busy practitioners do not
> even need this English word or its Indian language forms such as Vaidik or
> Vaidika", seems to need some nuancing.
>
> All the best,
>
> Patrick McCartney, PhD
> Fellow
> School of Culture, History & Language
> College of the Asia-Pacific
> The Australian National University
> Canberra, Australia, 0200
>
>
> Skype - psdmccartney
> Phone + Whatsapp:  +61 414 954 748
> Twitter - @psdmccartney
>
>
> academia <https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney>
>
>    -
>
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> #yogabodyANU2016 symposium <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X80KxW2bb0w>
> <http://chl.anu.edu.au/news-events/events/658/yoga-and-body-past-and-present-symposium?#tab>
>
> Ep1 - Imagining Sanskrit Land <https://youtu.be/jMi7tkPBbJ4>
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> Ep 2 - Total-am <https://youtu.be/7tAp8m9RHPU>
>
> Ep 3 - Jalam ≠ Chillum <https://youtu.be/cLZeuCT_mwQ>
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> Ep 4 - It's Time to get Married
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> A Day in our Ashram
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> Stop animation short film of Shakuntala
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> The Philosophy of Cycling
> <http://elibrary.com.ng/UploadFiles/file0_2221.pdf>
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>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 2:28 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> > Such experiences only strengthen my belief that there is nothing
>> 'Vedic' at all about 'Vedic astrology' except the conventional religious
>> window dressing by certain brahmin astrologers.
>>
>> Robert, today, what is being called as 'Vedic' astrology in the English
>> knowing circles is not practiced only by Brahmins. Whatever dressing or
>> cosmetics is being done is being done by the western circles of the
>> practice and the English tag 'Vedic' is needed by them and is used by them.
>> Brahmin and non-Brahmin contemporary  busy practitioners do not even
>> need this English word or its Indian language forms such as Vaidik or
>> Vaidika.
>>
>> You mentioned a Jaina practitioner and her appearance on TV. Here, we
>> have Muslim practitioners appearing/advertising on TV. There are tribal
>> practitioners claiming authentic tribal jyotishya. None of the Brahmin or
>> non-Brahmin practitioners appearing on TV or the  TV people themselves use
>> the words such as 'Vedic' 'Vaidik' or 'Vaidika'.
>>
>> Such belief systems and their believers do not need any such
>> tags. Satisfaction of knowing the destiny and handling it is all that
>> isimportant. Not whether it is Jaina, Muslim or Tribal , Tantric, or
>> whatever.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 6:58 PM, Bill Mak <bill.m.mak at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> Without examining the actual content of “Vedic astrology", I believe
>>> this discussion may become completely misguided. If one talks about the
>>> lunar astrology “hinted at” in the *Vedāṅgajyotiṣa, *indeed Vedic
>>> astrology seems the correct term. From the extant materials, this form of
>>> Vedic astrology based on 27/28 nakṣatra-s was practiced by the Buddhists
>>> and Jains. By the time of Varāhamihira, only remnants survived as collected
>>> in the *Bṛhatsaṃhitā*.
>>>
>>> As far as I can tell, what is referred to “Vedic astrology” refers
>>> actually to Greco-Indian horoscopy. Not only does it have little in common
>>> with the older “Vedic astrology”, the way it was conceptualized was
>>> completely different - it is based on solar motion, using zodiac, planets
>>> and planetary relation, concepts which are absent and foreign in the Vedic
>>> corpus. Unless one stretches the definition of Vedic to cover everything
>>> under the Indian civilization, “Vedic astrology” as such is a pure
>>> misnomer. No scholars on *jyotiṣa* would commit such travesty, from
>>> Kane, PV Sarma to Pingree.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Bill Mak
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bill M. Mak, PhD
>>>
>>> Visiting research scholar
>>> Institute for the Study of the Ancient World (ISAW)
>>> New York University
>>> 15 East 84th Street
>>> New York, NY 10028
>>> US
>>>
>>> Associate Professor
>>> Institute for Research in Humanities, Kyoto University
>>> Yoshidahonmachi, Sakyo-ku, Kyoto, Japan 606-8501
>>> 〒606-8501 京都市左京区吉田本町
>>> 京都大学人文科学研究所
>>>
>>> email: mak at zinbun.kyoto-u.ac.jp
>>> Tel:+81-75-753-6961
>>> Fax:+81-75-753-6903
>>>
>>> copies of my publications may be found at:
>>> http://www.billmak.com
>>>
>>> On Nov 13, 2016, at 2:11 PM, Robert Zydenbos <zydenbos at uni-muenchen.de>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> patrick mccartney wrote:
>>>
>>> I guess the question for me specifically regarding Vedic astrology is
>>> exactly the point Valerie and Luis raise. It could be called by the
>>> astrologers 'Indian Astrology', and perhaps it is a better representation,
>>> however they have settled on the use of Vedic to qualify their predictive
>>> system. Although, it's possible that someone out there might think that
>>> 'South Asian astrology' is a better term because all this knowledge
>>> developed prior to the birth of the Indian nation.
>>>
>>>
>>> If we ask such questions, there is the real danger that we enter the
>>> field of endless 'politically correct' quarrels. (E.g., is it not Western
>>> hybris to use the word 'Indian' for ancient Bhāratīya knowledge systems?
>>> etc. etc.)
>>>
>>> As for 'Vedic' astrology vis-à-vis other systems of astrology: there are
>>> also plenty of Jaina astrological practitioners (one of them has / had a
>>> regular program on a commercial South Indian TV station), there is a long
>>> and serious tradition of writing on astrological subjects by Jaina authors,
>>> and systemically I do not see any major differences with 'Vedic' astrology.
>>>
>>> The only significant difference I have come across concerns methods of
>>> prāyaścitta. I once heard a Jaina astrologer in Karnataka advise a person
>>> to pray to 'Infant Jesus' to counteract a certain planet's influence. The
>>> next person happened to have the same difficult, and she said "he should
>>> pray to Infant Jesus, but since you re a Jaina, you should do japa of this
>>> mantra to Munisuvratasvāmi". Brahmins, so she said, would have to do a pūjā
>>> to Viṣṇu.
>>>
>>> Intrigued by these bits of advice, I asked the astrologer more about how
>>> this works. She said that ultimately the worship of all those beings
>>> (Infant Jesus, Munisuvrata, Viṣṇu) produced the same effect, but only if
>>> the worshipper had real faith in what s/he was doing. Hence the object of
>>> worship needed to be chosen accordingly.
>>>
>>> Such experiences only strengthen my belief that there is nothing 'Vedic'
>>> at all about 'Vedic astrology' except the conventional religious window
>>> dressing by certain brahmin astrologers.
>>>
>>> RZ
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> unsubscribe)
>>
>
>

-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

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