[INDOLOGY] dna and castes

Thu Jan 28 09:47:38 UTC 2016

It's quite natural for texts composed by brahmins to elevate their own
status over the other varṇas, isn't it?
Too fast to come to this conclusion.
Is Vyasa a Brahmin?
On Jan 28, 2016 2:52 PM, "Ofer Peres" <ofer.peres at mail.huji.ac.il> wrote:

> Dear Nityanand,
> Statements on the superiority of Brahmins are very common in the Veda.
> Consider, for example, Śatapatha Brāhmaṇa 2.2.2.6 where brahmins are
> described as human gods:
> (Eggling's translation)
>
> "Verily, there are two kinds of gods; for, indeed, the gods are the gods;
> and the Brâhmans who have studied and teach sacred lore are the human gods.
> The sacrifice of these is divided into two kinds: oblations constitute the
> sacrifice to the gods; and gifts to the priests that to the human gods, the
> Brâhmans who have studied and teach sacred lore. With oblations one
> gratifies the gods, and with gifts to the priests the human gods, the
> Brâhmans who have studied and teach sacred lore. Both these kinds of gods,
> when gratified, place him in a state of bliss."
>
> Same statement can be found in  ŚB 2.4.3.14.  On the relation to Kṣatriyas
> consider ŚB 4.1.4.6 (again, in Eggling's translation):
>
> "Hence it is quite proper that a Brâhman should be without a king, but
> were he to obtain a king, it would be conducive to the success (of both).
> It is, however, quite improper that a king should be without a Brâhman, for
> whatever deed he does, unsped by Mitra, the priesthood, therein he succeeds
> not. Wherefore a Kshatriya who intends to do a deed ought by all means to
> resort to a Brâhman, for he verily succeeds only in the deed sped by the
> Brâhman."
>
> It's quite natural for texts composed by brahmins to elevate their own
> status over the other varṇas, isn't it?
>
>
> Ofer.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 2016-01-28 10:48 GMT+02:00 Nityanand Misra <nmisra at gmail.com>:
>
>> Dear Patrick
>>
>> Is this ethnographic research published or available to read? Would like
>> to know more details about the sample size, geographic distribution
>> (urban/rural) etc.
>>
>> As for Purusha Sukta, neither the commentary by Uvata nor that by
>> Mahidhara on VSYM 30.11 interprets a hierarchy in Brahmins emanating from
>> the mouth and Sudras from the feet. VSYM 30.12 and 30.13 say Agni was born
>> from the mouth and Bhumi from the feet of the Purusha. There is no
>> hierarchy interpreted here too by Uvata or Mahidhara.
>>
>> I am not denying that there are Brahmins who cite the Purusha Sukta in
>> response to a [tricky] question on superiority. But if this interpretation
>> is not found in traditional commentaries then can we say the Purusha Sukta
>> implies Brahmins are superior/higher?
>>
>> I can also say that some texts have in fact contradicted such
>> interpretations of the Purusha Sukta. I can cite the commentary by Svāmī
>> Rāmabhadrācārya on BG 18.41 (brāhmaṇakṣatriyaviśāṃ ...). The extracts are
>> in Sanskrit and Hindi and may be useful.
>>
>> Rāmabhadrācārya, Jagadguru Rāmānandācārya Svāmī (1998).
>> Śrīmadbhagavadgītā saṃskṛtahindīśrīrāghavakṛpābhāṣyasahitā. Volume II.
>> Citrakūṭa: Śrītulasīpīṭhasevānyāsa. pp. 471, 504–505.
>>
>> Sanskrit commentary on page 471:
>>
>> वस्तुतस्तु व्यापकोऽयं परमोदारो हिन्दूधर्मापरपर्यायः सनातनो नो वैदिको
>> धर्मः। अत्र वर्णव्यवस्था शास्त्रीया किन्तु नेयं परस्परद्वेषहेतुः। अत्र हि
>> वैदिकोऽयं मन्त्रवर्णो मयोदाह्रियते यं शातपथा धूपार्थं विनियुञ्जते—
>>
>> ब्रा॒ह्म॒णो॒ऽस्य॒ मुख॑मासीद्बा॒हू रा॑ज॒न्यः॑ कृ॒तः।
>> ऊ॒रू तद॑स्य॒ यद्वैश्य॑ प॒द्भ्या शू॒द्रो अ॑जायत॥
>> (शु॰य॰वा॰मा॰ ३१.११)
>> ‘पद्भ्याम्’ इति पञ्चम्यन्तानुरोधेन ‘मुखम्’ ‘बाहू’ ‘ऊरू’ इत्येतेष्वपि
>> पञ्चम्येव भवितव्यम्। अत्र ‘मुखात्’ इति वक्तव्ये ‘मुखम्’ इति। ङसः स्थाने
>> सोरमो लीला। ‘बाहुभ्याम्’ इति वक्तव्ये ‘बाहू’ इति। भ्यामः पूर्वसवर्णः।
>> ‘ऊरूभ्याम्’ इत्यत्रापि भ्यामः पूर्वसवर्णः। इदं सर्वं ‘व्यत्ययो बहुलम्’ (अ॰
>> ३.१.८५) इत्यस्यैव लीलाविलासः। तस्मान्निष्पन्नोऽयमर्थः—‘अस्य भगवतो
>> मुखाद्ब्राह्मण आसीद्बाहुभ्यां राजन्यः क्षत्रियः कृत ऊरूभ्यामस्य
>> वैश्योऽस्यैव पद्भ्यां शूद्र अजायत।’ भगवत आनन्दमयत्त्वात्तस्य सर्वाङ्गाणां
>> पावनत्वेन मुखस्योत्कृष्टत्वं पदयोश्चापकृष्टत्वं इति तु वक्तुं न शक्यते।
>> व्यवहारेऽपि पूज्यमीमांसायां मुखाच्छ्रेयांश्चरणो विलोक्यते। अत एव
>> पूज्यचरणपूज्यपादश्रीचरणाचार्यचरणपितृचरणेत्यादि चरणान्तं व्यवहरन्ति न तु
>> मुखबाह्वोरन्यतमम्। सम्मानार्थं चरणौ क्षालयन्ति पिबन्ति च चरणोदकं प्रणमन्ति
>> चरणेषु किं बहुना यच्चरणतो निर्गता गङ्गा पवित्रतावधिभूता सर्वाल्ँलोकान्
>> पुनाति तच्चरणतः समुद्भूतः शूद्रः कथमपवित्र इति विषमेयं परम्परा।
>>
>> Hindi commentary on pages 504–505:
>>
>> हिन्दू धर्म कितना उदार है। शुक्लयजुर्वेद में एक ऐसा अद्भुत मन्त्र है,
>> जिसको शतपथ ब्राह्मण में धूप के लिए नियुक्त किया गया है। क्योंकि ऋषि को
>> ज्ञान है कि यदि इस मन्त्र का अर्थ बोध हो जायेगा तो हिन्दू धर्म की संकीर्णता
>> की दुर्गन्ध उसी प्रकार दूर हो जायेगी, जैसे धूप से घर की दूर हो जाती है। वह
>> मन्त्र निम्नाङ्कित है—
>> ब्रा॒ह्म॒णो॒ऽस्य॒ मुख॑मासीद्बा॒हू रा॑ज॒न्यः॑ कृ॒तः।
>> ऊ॒रू तद॑स्य॒ यद्वैश्य॑ प॒द्भ्या शू॒द्रो अ॑जायत॥
>> (शु॰य॰वा॰मा॰ ३१.११)
>> यहाँ ‘पदभ्याम्’ के अनुरोध से सर्वत्र पञ्चमी की कल्पना करनी पड़ेगी और अर्थ
>> होगा कि ‘उस परमात्मा के मुख से ब्राह्मण उत्पन्न हुआ तथा भुजाओं से क्षत्रिय
>> उत्पन्न किया गया, उस परमात्मा के ऊरु से वैश्य, और चरण से शूद्र उत्पन्न
>> हुआ।’ भगवान् के सभी अङ्ग आनन्दमय हैं इसलिए मुख से उत्पन्न हुए ब्राह्मण की
>> अपेक्षा चरण से उत्पन्न हुआ शूद्र अपवित्र है यह कहना अत्यन्त भ्रम है।
>> लोकव्यवहार में भी चरण अपवित्र नहीं है। नहीं तो चरण पर ही प्रणाम क्यों किया
>> जाता? और चरणोदक क्यों लिया जाता? पूज्यों के लिए चरण शब्द का प्रयोग क्यों
>> किया जाता? भला जिन चरणों से प्रकट हुई गङ्गा सारे संसार को पवित्र कर रही
>> हैं, उनसे जन्म लेकर शूद्र अपवित्र क्यों? इसलिए वर्णव्यवस्था शास्त्रीय है,
>> वह द्वेष के लिए नहीं प्रत्युत सामाजिक समरसता के लिए है। प्रत्येक हिन्दू
>> अपने-अपने अधिकार में रहता हुआ श्रेष्ठ ही है।
>>
>> Thanks, Nityanand
>> On Jan 28, 2016 9:10 AM, "patrick mccartney" <psdmccartney at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Purusha Suktam - explains how Brahmins form the head, Ksatriyas the
>>> arms, Vaishyas the body, Shudras the feet  - actually 10.90.12
>>>
>>> In my ethnographic research I have heard this quoted countless times by
>>> Brahmins as justification as to why they consider themselves superior to
>>> the other classes/castes.
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> Patrick McCartney
>>>
>>> PhD Candidate
>>> School of Culture, History & Language
>>> College of the Asia-Pacific
>>> The Australian National University
>>> Canberra, Australia, 0200
>>>
>>>
>>> Skype - psdmccartney
>>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +61 414 954 748
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile
>>>    <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>*
>>>    - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney
>>>    <https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney>*
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg
>>>
>>> <http://goog_371544488>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg
>>>
>>> http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g
>>>
>>> http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 1:45 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Patrick McCartney,
>>>>
>>>> Many thanks. Currently I don’t have access to several
>>>> resources including a library. So, could you please recite yajurveda 30.11
>>>>  / ṛgveda 10.90 and explain the contents?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks and regards,
>>>> rajam
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 7:05 PM, patrick mccartney <psdmccartney at gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> yajurveda 30.11  / ṛgveda 10.90  could be good places to start?
>>>>
>>>> All the best,
>>>>
>>>> Patrick McCartney
>>>>
>>>> PhD Candidate
>>>> School of Culture, History & Language
>>>> College of the Asia-Pacific
>>>> The Australian National University
>>>> Canberra, Australia, 0200
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Skype - psdmccartney
>>>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +61 414 954 748
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>    - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile
>>>>    <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>*
>>>>    - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney
>>>>    <https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney>*
>>>>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg
>>>>
>>>> <http://goog_371544488/>
>>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg
>>>>
>>>> http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g
>>>>
>>>> http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 1:12 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> My naive, honest, and sincere question: *Who* decided/declared that
>>>>> the brahmins are the “upper caste?” and *what* was/is the criterion
>>>>> for such designation?
>>>>>
>>>>> As a brahmin myself, why am I not able to understand/accept such
>>>>> epithet?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks and regards,
>>>>> rajam
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 6:04 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Yet another cookie-cutter study resulting in a cotton-candy result!
>>>>> sigh.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>> rajam
>>>>>
>>>>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 12:55 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. <
>>>>> H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is the link, for those who cannot open the attachment:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2016/01/20/1513197113.abstract?sid=304804fd-0979-4e2a-87a7-a73108f3ed23
>>>>>
>>>>> Herman Tieken
>>>>> Stationsweg 58
>>>>> 2515 BP Den Haag
>>>>> The Netherlands
>>>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>>>>> website: hermantieken.com
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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