[INDOLOGY] dna and castes

Thu Jan 28 09:20:40 UTC 2016

Dear Nityanand,
Statements on the superiority of Brahmins are very common in the Veda.
Consider, for example, Śatapatha Brāhmaṇa 2.2.2.6 where brahmins are
described as human gods:
(Eggling's translation)

"Verily, there are two kinds of gods; for, indeed, the gods are the gods;
and the Brâhmans who have studied and teach sacred lore are the human gods.
The sacrifice of these is divided into two kinds: oblations constitute the
sacrifice to the gods; and gifts to the priests that to the human gods, the
Brâhmans who have studied and teach sacred lore. With oblations one
gratifies the gods, and with gifts to the priests the human gods, the
Brâhmans who have studied and teach sacred lore. Both these kinds of gods,
when gratified, place him in a state of bliss."

Same statement can be found in  ŚB 2.4.3.14.  On the relation to Kṣatriyas
consider ŚB 4.1.4.6 (again, in Eggling's translation):

"Hence it is quite proper that a Brâhman should be without a king, but were
he to obtain a king, it would be conducive to the success (of both). It is,
however, quite improper that a king should be without a Brâhman, for
whatever deed he does, unsped by Mitra, the priesthood, therein he succeeds
not. Wherefore a Kshatriya who intends to do a deed ought by all means to
resort to a Brâhman, for he verily succeeds only in the deed sped by the
Brâhman."

It's quite natural for texts composed by brahmins to elevate their own
status over the other varṇas, isn't it?

Ofer.

2016-01-28 10:48 GMT+02:00 Nityanand Misra <nmisra at gmail.com>:

> Dear Patrick
>
> Is this ethnographic research published or available to read? Would like
> to know more details about the sample size, geographic distribution
> (urban/rural) etc.
>
> As for Purusha Sukta, neither the commentary by Uvata nor that by
> Mahidhara on VSYM 30.11 interprets a hierarchy in Brahmins emanating from
> the mouth and Sudras from the feet. VSYM 30.12 and 30.13 say Agni was born
> from the mouth and Bhumi from the feet of the Purusha. There is no
> hierarchy interpreted here too by Uvata or Mahidhara.
>
> I am not denying that there are Brahmins who cite the Purusha Sukta in
> response to a [tricky] question on superiority. But if this interpretation
> is not found in traditional commentaries then can we say the Purusha Sukta
> implies Brahmins are superior/higher?
>
> I can also say that some texts have in fact contradicted such
> interpretations of the Purusha Sukta. I can cite the commentary by Svāmī
> Rāmabhadrācārya on BG 18.41 (brāhmaṇakṣatriyaviśāṃ ...). The extracts are
> in Sanskrit and Hindi and may be useful.
>
> Rāmabhadrācārya, Jagadguru Rāmānandācārya Svāmī (1998). Śrīmadbhagavadgītā
> saṃskṛtahindīśrīrāghavakṛpābhāṣyasahitā. Volume II. Citrakūṭa:
> Śrītulasīpīṭhasevānyāsa. pp. 471, 504–505.
>
> Sanskrit commentary on page 471:
>
> वस्तुतस्तु व्यापकोऽयं परमोदारो हिन्दूधर्मापरपर्यायः सनातनो नो वैदिको
> धर्मः। अत्र वर्णव्यवस्था शास्त्रीया किन्तु नेयं परस्परद्वेषहेतुः। अत्र हि
> वैदिकोऽयं मन्त्रवर्णो मयोदाह्रियते यं शातपथा धूपार्थं विनियुञ्जते—
>
> ब्रा॒ह्म॒णो॒ऽस्य॒ मुख॑मासीद्बा॒हू रा॑ज॒न्यः॑ कृ॒तः।
> ऊ॒रू तद॑स्य॒ यद्वैश्य॑ प॒द्भ्या शू॒द्रो अ॑जायत॥
> (शु॰य॰वा॰मा॰ ३१.११)
> ‘पद्भ्याम्’ इति पञ्चम्यन्तानुरोधेन ‘मुखम्’ ‘बाहू’ ‘ऊरू’ इत्येतेष्वपि
> पञ्चम्येव भवितव्यम्। अत्र ‘मुखात्’ इति वक्तव्ये ‘मुखम्’ इति। ङसः स्थाने
> सोरमो लीला। ‘बाहुभ्याम्’ इति वक्तव्ये ‘बाहू’ इति। भ्यामः पूर्वसवर्णः।
> ‘ऊरूभ्याम्’ इत्यत्रापि भ्यामः पूर्वसवर्णः। इदं सर्वं ‘व्यत्ययो बहुलम्’ (अ॰
> ३.१.८५) इत्यस्यैव लीलाविलासः। तस्मान्निष्पन्नोऽयमर्थः—‘अस्य भगवतो
> मुखाद्ब्राह्मण आसीद्बाहुभ्यां राजन्यः क्षत्रियः कृत ऊरूभ्यामस्य
> वैश्योऽस्यैव पद्भ्यां शूद्र अजायत।’ भगवत आनन्दमयत्त्वात्तस्य सर्वाङ्गाणां
> पावनत्वेन मुखस्योत्कृष्टत्वं पदयोश्चापकृष्टत्वं इति तु वक्तुं न शक्यते।
> व्यवहारेऽपि पूज्यमीमांसायां मुखाच्छ्रेयांश्चरणो विलोक्यते। अत एव
> पूज्यचरणपूज्यपादश्रीचरणाचार्यचरणपितृचरणेत्यादि चरणान्तं व्यवहरन्ति न तु
> मुखबाह्वोरन्यतमम्। सम्मानार्थं चरणौ क्षालयन्ति पिबन्ति च चरणोदकं प्रणमन्ति
> चरणेषु किं बहुना यच्चरणतो निर्गता गङ्गा पवित्रतावधिभूता सर्वाल्ँलोकान्
> पुनाति तच्चरणतः समुद्भूतः शूद्रः कथमपवित्र इति विषमेयं परम्परा।
>
> Hindi commentary on pages 504–505:
>
> हिन्दू धर्म कितना उदार है। शुक्लयजुर्वेद में एक ऐसा अद्भुत मन्त्र है,
> जिसको शतपथ ब्राह्मण में धूप के लिए नियुक्त किया गया है। क्योंकि ऋषि को
> ज्ञान है कि यदि इस मन्त्र का अर्थ बोध हो जायेगा तो हिन्दू धर्म की संकीर्णता
> की दुर्गन्ध उसी प्रकार दूर हो जायेगी, जैसे धूप से घर की दूर हो जाती है। वह
> मन्त्र निम्नाङ्कित है—
> ब्रा॒ह्म॒णो॒ऽस्य॒ मुख॑मासीद्बा॒हू रा॑ज॒न्यः॑ कृ॒तः।
> ऊ॒रू तद॑स्य॒ यद्वैश्य॑ प॒द्भ्या शू॒द्रो अ॑जायत॥
> (शु॰य॰वा॰मा॰ ३१.११)
> यहाँ ‘पदभ्याम्’ के अनुरोध से सर्वत्र पञ्चमी की कल्पना करनी पड़ेगी और अर्थ
> होगा कि ‘उस परमात्मा के मुख से ब्राह्मण उत्पन्न हुआ तथा भुजाओं से क्षत्रिय
> उत्पन्न किया गया, उस परमात्मा के ऊरु से वैश्य, और चरण से शूद्र उत्पन्न
> हुआ।’ भगवान् के सभी अङ्ग आनन्दमय हैं इसलिए मुख से उत्पन्न हुए ब्राह्मण की
> अपेक्षा चरण से उत्पन्न हुआ शूद्र अपवित्र है यह कहना अत्यन्त भ्रम है।
> लोकव्यवहार में भी चरण अपवित्र नहीं है। नहीं तो चरण पर ही प्रणाम क्यों किया
> जाता? और चरणोदक क्यों लिया जाता? पूज्यों के लिए चरण शब्द का प्रयोग क्यों
> किया जाता? भला जिन चरणों से प्रकट हुई गङ्गा सारे संसार को पवित्र कर रही
> हैं, उनसे जन्म लेकर शूद्र अपवित्र क्यों? इसलिए वर्णव्यवस्था शास्त्रीय है,
> वह द्वेष के लिए नहीं प्रत्युत सामाजिक समरसता के लिए है। प्रत्येक हिन्दू
> अपने-अपने अधिकार में रहता हुआ श्रेष्ठ ही है।
>
> Thanks, Nityanand
> On Jan 28, 2016 9:10 AM, "patrick mccartney" <psdmccartney at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Purusha Suktam - explains how Brahmins form the head, Ksatriyas the arms,
>> Vaishyas the body, Shudras the feet  - actually 10.90.12
>>
>> In my ethnographic research I have heard this quoted countless times by
>> Brahmins as justification as to why they consider themselves superior to
>> the other classes/castes.
>>
>> All the best,
>>
>> Patrick McCartney
>>
>> PhD Candidate
>> School of Culture, History & Language
>> College of the Asia-Pacific
>> The Australian National University
>> Canberra, Australia, 0200
>>
>>
>> Skype - psdmccartney
>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +61 414 954 748
>>
>>
>>
>>    - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile
>>    <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>*
>>    - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney
>>    <https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney>*
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg
>>
>> <http://goog_371544488>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg
>>
>> http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g
>>
>> http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 1:45 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Patrick McCartney,
>>>
>>> Many thanks. Currently I don’t have access to several
>>> resources including a library. So, could you please recite yajurveda 30.11
>>>  / ṛgveda 10.90 and explain the contents?
>>>
>>> Thanks and regards,
>>> rajam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 7:05 PM, patrick mccartney <psdmccartney at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> yajurveda 30.11  / ṛgveda 10.90  could be good places to start?
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> Patrick McCartney
>>>
>>> PhD Candidate
>>> School of Culture, History & Language
>>> College of the Asia-Pacific
>>> The Australian National University
>>> Canberra, Australia, 0200
>>>
>>>
>>> Skype - psdmccartney
>>> Phone + Whatsapp:  +61 414 954 748
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>    - *https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile
>>>    <https://www.linkedin.com/profile/view?id=241756978&trk=nav_responsive_tab_profile>*
>>>    - *https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney
>>>    <https://anu-au.academia.edu/patrickmccartney>*
>>>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cy6lVABgjmg
>>>
>>> <http://goog_371544488/>
>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVqBD_2P4Pg
>>>
>>> http://youtu.be/y3XfjbwqC_g
>>>
>>> http://trinityroots.bandcamp.com/track/all-we-be
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 1:12 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> My naive, honest, and sincere question: *Who* decided/declared that
>>>> the brahmins are the “upper caste?” and *what* was/is the criterion
>>>> for such designation?
>>>>
>>>> As a brahmin myself, why am I not able to understand/accept such
>>>> epithet?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks and regards,
>>>> rajam
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 6:04 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Yet another cookie-cutter study resulting in a cotton-candy result!
>>>> sigh.
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> rajam
>>>>
>>>> On Jan 27, 2016, at 12:55 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. <
>>>> H.J.H.Tieken at hum.leidenuniv.nl> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Here is the link, for those who cannot open the attachment:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2016/01/20/1513197113.abstract?sid=304804fd-0979-4e2a-87a7-a73108f3ed23
>>>>
>>>> Herman Tieken
>>>> Stationsweg 58
>>>> 2515 BP Den Haag
>>>> The Netherlands
>>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>>>> website: hermantieken.com
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
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