[INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC
George Thompson
gthomgt at gmail.com
Sat Jun 13 23:32:08 UTC 2015
Dear Prof. Pandurangi,
Our good colleague, Prof. Whitaker, has appealed to us all to stop this
discussion. And all of us have wisely done so, except for you. Why insult
Prof. Knutson by referring to him as "Prof. Jesse"? Then you go on to
compare Prof. Doniger to Hitler.
The reason why we should avoid these sorts of highly emotional discussions
is that they almost always degenerate into this kind of over-emotional
rhetoric.
If you want to argue that Vedic Sanskrit is 10,000 years, please feel
free. But you have no viable evidence for this claim, since we have no
evidence whatsoever for any writing system that is that old. Brief
allusions have been made to the stark differences between urban IVC and
nomadic pastoralist Vedic culture. In IVC lots of fish signs and
unicorns. Both are completely absent in Vedic. In Vedic lots of references
to horses and chariots. Both completely absent in IVC. [There's a lot more
to say about how culturally different IVC is from Vedic [BTW]. If you want
to talk about genetics, please do.
To attack German scholars in particular is rather strange to me, since most
European and Russian and American Indologists have the same views, as well
most Asian Indologists and Latin American Indologists.
I knew that this would happen, as did Prof. Whitaker. So I second his
request, let us stop this fruitless argument.
Best wishes
George Thompson
On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Veeranarayana Pandurangi <
veerankp at gmail.com> wrote:
> dear all
> here it seems many high scholars are truly concerned over future of India?
>
> I put the things steps by steps for analysing. and I submit my views.
> sorry for lengthy write up.
>
> 1. Sanskrit department in Delhi wants to prove that there was no Aryan
> invasion and Vedic texts date back to 8000 BC or something.
>
> 2. According to most experts there are no proofs to substantiate it as the
> economic times reporter puts it
>
> "But then the Sanskrit expert *(Bharadvaj) [italics
> mine]* makes some troublesome claims by asserting that the set of people
> referred to as Aryans by the European scholars were
> "indigenous" Sanskrit speakers whose texts date back to 8,000 BC. The
> professor makes these claims though he does not have any archaeological
> evidence or other such to back him in terms of historicity.
> * Narrative sans Evidence*
>
> Bhardwaj's narrative is another instance of identifying
> ancient India with a Sanskritic narrative and that too without evidence.
>
> The idea becomes a bit fuzzy considering that in recent
> times genetic studies have established and proved beyond doubt that there
> are tribal communities in India that are 65,000 years
> old.
> * So even though he has not taken into account the evidence
> provided by genetic scientists about the antiquity of tribal communities in
> India,* the Sanskrit professor and his team plan to
> compare available material on the Aryan theory in school textbooks with
> Sanskrit texts. The team will also make recommendations to the education
> ministry on correcting the distortions."
>
> http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-01-18/news/58200761_1_sanskrit-department-aryans-modern-india
>
> 3. it seems that Economic times reporter has too become an expert on
> Ancient India to declare that Bharadvaj is proof-less man. For more info on
> wide ranging expertise of this reporter "KP Narayana Kumar" see this link
> http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/etreporter/author-K-P-Narayana-Kumar,filterby-3.cms.
> God knows how he writes like this.
>
> 4. Dilip Chakravarti is worried By this act of Bharadvaj and puts the
> proposal was "racist and historically puerile" and he advises this dept. "The
> Sanskrit department of Delhi University would do a much better job training
> some palaeographers and epigraphists, who will soon be an extinct class of
> scholars in the country, without bothering about something as racist and
> historically puerile as Aryans," Chakrabarti said in an email to a query
> from *The Telegraph*."
>
> 5. again many scholars are worried about "racist and historically
> puerile" and start a discussion in this list.
> 6. one scholar (Dr.Jesse) puts it
> "This is racist on many levels. 1. There is a cultural
> chauvinism that anything good must originate in the womb of Bharata Mātā 2.
> Bharadvaj wants to say that the Indus Valley
> Civilization emerged from the Vedic culture, when in fact the IVC was a
> highly developed civilization, of greater antiquity than the Veda, which
> did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo- European language. *To
> attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the speakers of Vedic is
> extremely racist and chauvinistic.**" (8.6.15)*
>
> "I know that IVC seals have not been deciphered, but simply
> wished to point out that in all probability, *in the opinion of most
> experts, they did not speak an Indo-European or
> Indo-Aryan language. The only people who believe otherwise are the true
> racists and chauvinists, the Hindutva morons who sadly are in a position of
> great power in your country today.*
> * (11.6.15).*
>
> *7. *Then the discussions turned on other issues as to whether IVC was
> dravidian or something else and other matters.
>
> 8. I want to raise objections to Dr.Jesse's derogatory wordings for
> Indians. Bharadvaj is merely proposing to re-examine the IVC/AIT theory
> propagated by western historians. it is clear from Telegraph report
> *"**We are trying to prove the chronology of the
> Sanskrit texts*. By doing that, if the Aryan immigration theory is
> destroyed, that is an additional benefit," Bhardwaj argued.
>
> He said the mainstream history textbooks say that
> India's earliest civilisation came up in Harappa around 2800 BC and that
> the Aryans arrived from Central Asia around 1500 BC.
> "*We question this theory by western historians*,"
> Bhardwaj said. "They claim the Vedic period dates back to between 1500 BC
> and 2000 BC. *We have doubts.* If we establish the chronology of
> the Sanskrit texts, things will be clear.""
>
> 9. *is questioning anything is racial*? I wonder why reputed scholars
> like Cardona Aklujkar and Deshpande etc in this forum are silent on this
> person's declaration. न ते वृद्धा ये न प्रवदन्ति धर्मम्. This is insult to
> academic freedom.
>
> 10. *is Having doubts on anything racial*? this statement shows the
> level of arrogance.
>
> 11. And Dr. Jesse advises Nagaraj Paturi "*try to discern the intent of
> someone's comments, before you start using heated language, and calling
> people racists and chauvinists*" while himself uses the words again all
> the scholars who think otherwise.(see his sentence quoted above in the mail
> 8.6.15).
>
> *What is this? What authority he has to declare all of us racists? why
> supporters of free speech are silent? do they agree to the Idea of
> Dr.Jesse? This is serious offence on academic differences. I ask for
> apologies from Dr. Jesse. he should withdraw his statement.*
>
> *12. Finally Dr. Jesse is directly accusing the Elected Prime Minister of
> India as moron, racist and chauvanist (since Mr.Modi is in power now) *
> *This is too big assault on the Whole of Indian people who have elected
> Modi. This is serious blunder. that would lead to unnecessary
> complications. *
>
> 13. Dilip Chakrabarti's statement in the following link needs attention
> Speaking to ET, Chakrabarti said, "David Frawley is not an
> academic. Why should he be invited to deliver an academic lecture?" *"It's
> a fact there is a long shadow of the Left on history writing
> in India. But we need to correct that through proper academic research*.
> We cannot achieve that with the likes of Mr. Frawley."
>
> http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-03-27/news/60553899_1_ichr-y-sudershan-rao-history-wing
> .
>
> 14. *what is wrong if Bhardvaj said "**that anything good must originate
> in the womb of Bharata Mātā**"? *IVC was from the Undivided Bharat Mata
> itself. it is clear that Bharadvaj is not saying that all the good things
> elsewhere in the world originate from Bharat Mata.
>
> 15. *it seems that some people here enjoy whenever a controversial/
> derogatory news on Indian academics is published anywhere in the world.
> that would immediately come to discussion here. they are eager to share it
> with indology. this shows the mindset of people. it happened in the cases
> of Mein kemph and Hindus by Dr. Wendy Doniger.*
>
> 16. I thank Howard Resnick for raising objections on "Racist"
>
> 17. I finally attach a paper written by Thangaraj on the genetics that
> disproves the influx of people into India.
>
> We need to discuss and sort out problems rather than creating them.
>
> sorry for lengthy mail and the problems it causes.
>
> On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 10:56 PM, Jesse Knutson <jknutson at hawaii.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> I think Dilip Chakrabarty is actually thinking about racism from a
>> totally different angle. What is racist is the notion that 'aryans'--the
>> speakers of Old Indo-Aryan, or what have you--originated within the
>> subcontinent, and that they predate and include the Indus Valley
>> Civilization. Bharadvaj clearly wants to demonstrate that the composers of
>> the Vedas were indigenous, and of an antiquity greater than the Indus
>> Valley Civilization. This is racist on many levels. 1. There is a cultural
>> chauvinism that anything good must originate in the womb of Bharata Mātā 2.
>> Bharadvaj wants to say that the Indus Valley Civilization emerged from the
>> Vedic culture, when in fact the IVC was a highly developed civilization, of
>> greater antiquity than the Veda, which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or
>> Indo-European language. To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the
>> speakers of Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic.
>>
>> On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Simon Brodbeck <BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Howard,
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think that regardless of any etymological link, we need to apply a
>>> semantic distinction between the Sanskrit word arya and the English word
>>> Aryan. When the former is translated, it tends to come out as “noble” or
>>> something like that (e.g. in truths 1 to 4 of that ilk), rather than as
>>> “Aryan”. Under the latter, the OED reads as follows (“arya” has no entry):
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *A.* adj.
>>>
>>> *1.*
>>>
>>> a. Applied by some to the great division or family of languages,
>>> which includes Sanskrit, Zend, Persian, Greek, Latin, Celtic, Teutonic, and
>>> Slavonic, with their modern representatives; also called *Indo-European*,
>>> *Indo-Germanic*, and sometimes *Japhetic*; by others restricted to the
>>> Asiatic portion of these. *absol.*, the original Aryan or Arian
>>> language.
>>>
>>> b. *spec.* Of or pertaining to the ancient Aryan people.
>>>
>>> *2.* Under the Nazi régime (1933–45) applied to the inhabitants of
>>> Germany of non-Jewish extraction.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *B.* n.
>>>
>>> 1. A member of the Aryan family; one belonging to, or descended from,
>>> the ancient people who spoke the parent Aryan language.
>>>
>>> *2.* *spec.* under the Nazi régime (cf. sense A. 2
>>> <http://www.oed.com/view/Entry/11296?redirectedFrom=aryan#eid38293561>).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I think Chakrabarti is probably thinking in terms of meanings A1b and
>>> B1. But I can’t speak for him.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All the best,
>>>
>>> Simon Brodbeck
>>>
>>> Cardiff University
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info] *On
>>> Behalf Of *Howard Resnick
>>> *Sent:* 08 June 2015 15:10
>>> *To:* Geoffrey Samuel
>>> *Cc:* Dominik Wujastyk; Indology List
>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding
>>> indology at the IHRC
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> As we know, Arya is a Vedic term. In the Telegraph article, Bharadwaj
>>> states that he wants to research the notion of Aryan migration. Bharadwaj
>>> does not state that he takes ‘Aryan’ as a racial, rather than a cultural,
>>> term. So please help me here. Where is the racism?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Howard
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Geoffrey Samuel <SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If you read Dilip Chakrabarti's comment as quoted in the Telegraph
>>> article, what he was actually saying was that the concept of Aryans was
>>> 'racist and historically puerile' and that research on it was therefore a
>>> waste of resources in comparison with other possible uses - he specifically
>>> referred to training more palaeographers and epigraphists, 'who will soon
>>> be an extinct class of scholars in the country'.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> That seems a reasonable and defensible position.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Geoffrey
>>> ------------------------------
>>>
>>> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
>>> Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu>
>>> *Sent:* 08 June 2015 09:12
>>> *To:* Dominik Wujastyk
>>> *Cc:* Indology List
>>> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding
>>> indology at the IHRC
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "Dilip K. Chakrabarti, emeritus professor of South Asian archaeology
>>> with Cambridge University and a member of the council and its research
>>> project committee, said the proposal was "racist and historically puerile”.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> How racist?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> h.r.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Jesse Ross Knutson PhD
>> Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific
>> Languages and Literatures
>> University of Hawai'i at Mānoa
>> 452A Spalding
>>
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi
> Director of Academics
> Dean, Faculty of Vedantas
> Karnakata Samskrita University,
> Pampa Mahakavi Road,
> Chamarajpet, Bengaluru.
>
>
> अथ चेत्त्वमिमं धर्म्यं संग्रामं न करिष्यसि। ततः स्वधर्मं कीर्तिं च हित्वा
> पापमवाप्स्यसि।।
> तस्मादुत्तिष्ठ कौन्तेय युद्धाय कृतनिश्चयः। निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व
> विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)
>
> http://www.ksu.ac.in
> http://www.ksu.ac.in/en/dr-veeranarayana-n-k-pandurangi/
> <https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!forum/bvparishat>
> https://groups.google.com/forum/?hl=en&fromgroups#!forum/bvparishat
>
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