[INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC

Sun Jun 14 01:29:22 UTC 2015

Just a short note: an address like prof. Jesse is quite usual in India and does not indicate lack of politeness. I've been called dr. Hans or prof. Hans many times

Cheers

Hans Henrich

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 13, 2015, at 18:32, George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com<mailto:gthomgt at gmail.com>> wrote:

Dear Prof. Pandurangi,

Our good colleague, Prof. Whitaker, has appealed to us all to stop this discussion.  And all of us have wisely done so, except for you.  Why insult Prof. Knutson by referring to him as "Prof.  Jesse"?  Then you go on to compare Prof. Doniger to Hitler.

The reason why we should avoid these sorts of highly emotional discussions is that they almost always degenerate into this kind of over-emotional rhetoric.

If you want to argue that Vedic Sanskrit is 10,000 years, please feel free.  But you have no viable evidence for this claim, since we have no evidence whatsoever for any writing  system that is that old.  Brief allusions have been made to the stark differences between urban IVC and nomadic pastoralist Vedic culture.  In IVC lots of fish signs and unicorns.  Both are completely absent in Vedic. In Vedic lots of references to horses and chariots.  Both completely absent in IVC. [There's a lot more to say about how culturally different IVC is from Vedic [BTW]. If you want to talk about genetics, please do.

To attack German scholars in particular is rather strange to me, since most European and Russian and American Indologists have the same views, as well most Asian Indologists and Latin American Indologists.

I knew that this would happen, as did Prof. Whitaker.  So I second his request, let us stop this fruitless argument.

Best wishes

George Thompson

On Sat, Jun 13, 2015 at 4:18 PM, Veeranarayana Pandurangi <veerankp at gmail.com<mailto:veerankp at gmail.com>> wrote:
dear all
here it seems many high scholars are truly concerned over future of India?

I put the things steps by steps for analysing. and I submit my views. sorry for lengthy write up.

1. Sanskrit department in Delhi wants to prove that there was no Aryan invasion and Vedic texts date back to 8000 BC or something.

2. According to most experts there are no proofs to substantiate it as the economic times reporter puts it

                 "But then the Sanskrit expert (Bharadvaj) [italics mine] makes some troublesome claims by asserting that the set of people referred to as Aryans by the European scholars were                   "indigenous" Sanskrit speakers whose texts date back to 8,000 BC. The professor makes these claims though he does not have any archaeological evidence or other such to back                 him in terms of historicity.
               Narrative sans Evidence

                Bhardwaj's narrative is another instance of identifying ancient India with a Sanskritic narrative and that too without evidence.                                                                                                  The idea becomes a bit fuzzy considering that in recent times genetic studies have established and proved beyond doubt that there are tribal communities in India that are 65,000                    years old.

              So even though he has not taken into account the evidence provided by genetic scientists about the antiquity of tribal communities in India, the Sanskrit professor and                his team plan to  compare available material on the Aryan theory in school textbooks with Sanskrit texts. The team will also make recommendations to the education ministry                         on correcting the distortions."
http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-01-18/news/58200761_1_sanskrit-department-aryans-modern-india<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com_2015-2D01-2D18_news_58200761-5F1-5Fsanskrit-2Ddepartment-2Daryans-2Dmodern-2Dindia&d=AwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=yKOAMu7Fm_W5kv9CXfjbmb6aWTY6BVQCYZ5TKkB486Q&m=qhTXegutdfMpb6YPHSnYJ2-o1IRom79Vs_s9ye6g46A&s=D05Na_21UN-TK7d1ScAI43Zc_L58cCPrsY7U19qvjVw&e=>

3. it seems that Economic times reporter has too become an expert on Ancient India to declare that Bharadvaj is proof-less man. For more info on wide ranging expertise of  this reporter "KP Narayana Kumar"  see this link http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/etreporter/author-K-P-Narayana-Kumar,filterby-3.cms<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__economictimes.indiatimes.com_etreporter_author-2DK-2DP-2DNarayana-2DKumar-2Cfilterby-2D3.cms&d=AwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=yKOAMu7Fm_W5kv9CXfjbmb6aWTY6BVQCYZ5TKkB486Q&m=qhTXegutdfMpb6YPHSnYJ2-o1IRom79Vs_s9ye6g46A&s=OyXFNazxXHH3gqQdUWnnUC_w1nKZGyGGeZn2Jp1KZrc&e=>. God knows how he writes like this.

4. Dilip Chakravarti is worried By this act of Bharadvaj and puts the proposal was "racist and historically puerile" and he advises this dept. "The Sanskrit department of Delhi University would do a much better job training some palaeographers and epigraphists, who will soon be an extinct class of scholars in the country, without bothering about something as racist and historically puerile as Aryans," Chakrabarti said in an email to a query from The Telegraph."

5. again many scholars are worried about "racist and historically puerile" and start a discussion in this list.
6. one scholar (Dr.Jesse) puts it
                  "This is racist on many levels. 1. There is a cultural chauvinism that anything good must originate in the womb of Bharata Mātā 2. Bharadvaj wants to say that the Indus Valley                        Civilization emerged from the Vedic culture, when in fact the IVC was a highly developed civilization, of greater antiquity than the Veda, which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo-                    European language. To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the speakers of Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic." (8.6.15)

             "I know that IVC seals have not been deciphered, but simply wished to point out that in all probability, in the opinion of most experts, they did not speak an Indo-European or                   Indo-Aryan language. The only people who believe otherwise are the true racists and chauvinists, the Hindutva morons who sadly are in a position of                                      great power in your country today. (11.6.15).

7. Then the discussions turned on other issues as to whether IVC was dravidian or something else and other matters.

8. I want to raise objections to Dr.Jesse's derogatory wordings for Indians. Bharadvaj is merely proposing to re-examine the IVC/AIT theory propagated by western historians. it is clear from     Telegraph report
                 "We are trying to prove the chronology of the Sanskrit texts. By doing that, if the Aryan immigration theory is destroyed, that is an additional benefit," Bhardwaj argued.

                      He said the mainstream history textbooks say that India's earliest civilisation came up in Harappa around 2800 BC and that the Aryans arrived from Central Asia around 1500 BC.

                    "We question this theory by western historians," Bhardwaj said. "They claim the Vedic period dates back to between 1500 BC and 2000 BC. We have doubts. If we establish the chronology of                          the Sanskrit texts, things will be clear.""

9. is questioning anything is racial?  I wonder why reputed scholars like Cardona  Aklujkar and Deshpande etc in this forum are silent on this person's declaration. न ते वृद्धा ये न प्रवदन्ति धर्मम्. This is insult to academic freedom.

10. is Having doubts on anything racial?  this statement shows the level of arrogance.

11. And Dr. Jesse advises Nagaraj Paturi "try to discern the intent of someone's comments, before you start using heated language, and calling people racists and chauvinists" while himself uses the words again all the scholars who think otherwise.(see his sentence quoted above in the mail 8.6.15).

What is this? What authority he has to declare all of us racists? why supporters of free speech are silent? do they agree to the Idea of Dr.Jesse? This is serious offence on academic differences. I ask for apologies from Dr. Jesse. he should withdraw his statement.

12. Finally Dr. Jesse is directly accusing the Elected Prime Minister of India as moron, racist and chauvanist (since Mr.Modi is in power now)
This is too big assault on the Whole of Indian people who have elected Modi. This is serious blunder. that would lead to unnecessary complications.

13. Dilip Chakrabarti's statement in the following link needs attention
        Speaking to ET, Chakrabarti said, "David Frawley is not an academic. Why should he be invited to deliver an academic lecture?" "It's a fact there is a long shadow of the Left on               history writing in India. But we need to correct that through proper academic research. We cannot achieve that with the likes of Mr. Frawley."
http://articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com/2015-03-27/news/60553899_1_ichr-y-sudershan-rao-history-wing<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__articles.economictimes.indiatimes.com_2015-2D03-2D27_news_60553899-5F1-5Fichr-2Dy-2Dsudershan-2Drao-2Dhistory-2Dwing&d=AwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=yKOAMu7Fm_W5kv9CXfjbmb6aWTY6BVQCYZ5TKkB486Q&m=qhTXegutdfMpb6YPHSnYJ2-o1IRom79Vs_s9ye6g46A&s=H9bFgNIc3G1baV8XNzQiBrZh5xwyvpPwbE0YOhY8Q0Q&e=>.

14. what is wrong if Bhardvaj said "that anything good must originate in the womb of Bharata Mātā"? IVC was from the Undivided Bharat Mata itself. it is clear that Bharadvaj is not saying that all the good things elsewhere in the world originate from Bharat Mata.

15. it seems that some people here enjoy whenever a controversial/ derogatory news on Indian academics is published anywhere in the world. that would immediately come to discussion here. they are eager to share it with indology.  this shows the mindset of people. it happened in the cases of Mein kemph and Hindus by Dr. Wendy Doniger.

16. I thank Howard Resnick for raising objections on "Racist"

17. I finally attach a paper written by Thangaraj on the genetics that disproves the influx of  people into India.

We need to discuss and sort out problems rather than creating them.

sorry for lengthy mail and the problems it causes.

On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 10:56 PM, Jesse Knutson <jknutson at hawaii.edu<mailto:jknutson at hawaii.edu>> wrote:
I think Dilip Chakrabarty is actually thinking about racism from a totally different angle. What is racist is the notion that 'aryans'--the speakers of Old Indo-Aryan, or what have you--originated within the subcontinent, and that they predate and include the Indus Valley Civilization. Bharadvaj clearly wants to demonstrate that the composers of the Vedas were indigenous, and of an antiquity greater than the Indus Valley Civilization. This is racist on many levels. 1. There is a cultural chauvinism that anything good must originate in the womb of Bharata Mātā 2. Bharadvaj wants to say that the Indus Valley Civilization emerged from the Vedic culture, when in fact the IVC was a highly developed civilization, of greater antiquity than the Veda, which did not speak an Indo-Aryan or Indo-European language. To attribute the IVC cultural achievements to the speakers of Vedic is extremely racist and chauvinistic.

On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 8:02 PM, Simon Brodbeck <BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk<mailto:BrodbeckSP at cardiff.ac.uk>> wrote:
Dear Howard,

I think that regardless of any etymological link, we need to apply a semantic distinction between the Sanskrit word arya and the English word Aryan. When the former is translated, it tends to come out as “noble” or something like that (e.g. in truths 1 to 4 of that ilk), rather than as “Aryan”. Under the latter, the OED reads as follows (“arya” has no entry):

A. adj.
 1.

a.       Applied by some to the great division or family of languages, which includes Sanskrit, Zend, Persian, Greek, Latin, Celtic, Teutonic, and Slavonic, with their modern representatives; also called Indo-European, Indo-Germanic, and sometimes Japhetic; by others restricted to the Asiatic portion of these. absol., the original Aryan or Arian language.

b.      spec. Of or pertaining to the ancient Aryan people.
2. Under the Nazi régime (1933–45) applied to the inhabitants of Germany of non-Jewish extraction.

B. n.
1. A member of the Aryan family; one belonging to, or descended from, the ancient people who spoke the parent Aryan language.
2. spec. under the Nazi régime (cf. sense A. 2<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.oed.com_view_Entry_11296-3FredirectedFrom-3Daryan-23eid38293561&d=AwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=yKOAMu7Fm_W5kv9CXfjbmb6aWTY6BVQCYZ5TKkB486Q&m=qhTXegutdfMpb6YPHSnYJ2-o1IRom79Vs_s9ye6g46A&s=SpXoGDYXGizySllfsothA7saTdGFfARofFNhDzx_o6o&e=>).

I think Chakrabarti is probably thinking in terms of meanings A1b and B1. But I can’t speak for him.

All the best,
Simon Brodbeck
Cardiff University

From: INDOLOGY [mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>] On Behalf Of Howard Resnick
Sent: 08 June 2015 15:10
To: Geoffrey Samuel
Cc: Dominik Wujastyk; Indology List
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC

As we know, Arya is a Vedic term. In the Telegraph article, Bharadwaj states that he wants to research the notion of Aryan migration. Bharadwaj does not state that he takes ‘Aryan’ as a racial, rather than a cultural, term. So please help me here. Where is the racism?

Thanks,
Howard

On Jun 8, 2015, at 5:04 PM, Geoffrey Samuel <SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk<mailto:SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk>> wrote:

If you read Dilip Chakrabarti's comment as quoted in the Telegraph article, what he was actually saying was that the concept of Aryans was 'racist and historically puerile' and that research on it was therefore a waste of resources in comparison with other possible uses - he specifically referred to training more palaeographers and epigraphists, 'who will soon be an extinct class of scholars in the country'.

That seems a reasonable and defensible position.

Geoffrey
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of Howard Resnick <hr at ivs.edu<mailto:hr at ivs.edu>>
Sent: 08 June 2015 09:12
To: Dominik Wujastyk
Cc: Indology List
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Article about the politics surrounding indology at the IHRC

"Dilip K. Chakrabarti, emeritus professor of South Asian archaeology with Cambridge University and a member of the council and its research project committee, said the proposal was "racist and historically puerile”.

How racist?

h.r.

On Jun 8, 2015, at 11:00 AM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com<mailto:wujastyk at gmail.com>> wrote:

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1150606/jsp/nation/story_24264.jsp<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.telegraphindia.com_1150606_jsp_nation_story-5F24264.jsp&d=AwMFaQ&c=8hUWFZcy2Z-Za5rBPlktOQ&r=yKOAMu7Fm_W5kv9CXfjbmb6aWTY6BVQCYZ5TKkB486Q&m=qhTXegutdfMpb6YPHSnYJ2-o1IRom79Vs_s9ye6g46A&s=Awalgy-8J1eO6GPsC9eqy72ZoOzcBpsgdIk0enqkE6M&e=>
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--
Jesse Ross Knutson PhD
Assistant Professor of Sanskrit and Bengali, Department of Indo-Pacific Languages and Literatures
University of Hawai'i at Mānoa
452A Spalding

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Veeranarayana N.K. Pandurangi
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Dean, Faculty of Vedantas
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Chamarajpet, Bengaluru.

अथ चेत्त्वमिमं धर्म्यं संग्रामं न करिष्यसि। ततः स्वधर्मं कीर्तिं च हित्वा पापमवाप्स्यसि।।
तस्मादुत्तिष्ठ कौन्तेय युद्धाय कृतनिश्चयः। निराशीर्निर्ममो भूत्वा युध्यस्व विगतज्वरः।। (भ.गी.)

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