[INDOLOGY] Second-syllable rhyming in Dravidian

[Jean-Luc Chevillard]

Dear Professor Paturi,

briefly

(1) the "is not true" predicate applied to the portion of your message 
which I quoted in my message.

(2) thanks for confirming that you cannot provide "massive evidence" 
from Tamil literature

(3) I am certainly VERY interested in learning more about Telugu meters 
and obtaining authentic information from you on that topic. If the forum 
has had enough concerning metrics (which some people consider as a dry 
subject ;-), we can also have private exchanges about the topic ...

(4) I also had the earlier statement by S. Palaniappan in mind when I 
was referring to the lenses provided by Yāpparuṅkalam and Yāpparuṅkalak 
kārikai and you might remember that I immediately commented on his 
message and tried to suggest that Indira Peterson may have referred to 
the more frequent usage

I believe I should not post more today :-)

Yours with every good wish

-- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS) (in Pondicherry)


"https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard"

"https://plus.google.com/u/0/113653379205101980081/posts/p/pub"

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On 09/08/2015 18:02, Nagaraj Paturi wrote:
> Dear Dr Jean- Luc Chevillard,
>
> Your "This is not true!" probably is to my
>
>     >4. For a Dravidian '*origin*' of SSR to be considered the following are the hurdles:
>
>     >a. SSR of Dravidian verse and lyrical meters is intra-line and the SSR of Sanskrit meters either as used in languages of the south or in cases such as gOpIgItam of >Sanskrit,  is inter-line.
>
> Thanks for the examples of inter-line SSR from tolkAppiyam.
>
> Does your
>
>      > If you can provde massive evidence from ancient Tamil literature
>     in order to support your statement, please do
>
> refer to my
>
>
>     >SSR of Dravidian verse and lyrical meters is intra-line ?
>
> Your position with regard to this is
>
>     >I believe "intra-line" SSR is less frequent
>
> So you are asking me to provide me to provide massive number of examples
> for intra-line SSR from ancient Tamil literature. Did I get you right?
>
> -No. I am not in a position right now to provide massive number of
> examples for intra-line SSR from ancient Tamil literature. I need time
> to browse through the corpus I have to see if this is true with ancient
> Tamil literature.
>
> All that I can tell you readily with authenticity is that in Telugu,
> which is one of the Dravidian languages, intra-line SSR is part of the
> rules of all the native verse meters but as an alternative to intra-line
> FSR. The rule of line-break is based on feet count unlike the syllable
> count in Sanskrit meters. Since it is part of rule, naturally there are
> massive number of examples in Telugu for intra-line SSR , spread all
> over the Telugu verse literature employing native Telugu meters.
>
> Sri Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan in
>
> http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2015-July/041805.html
>
> says,
>
> The second syllable rhyme can also occur within a line in different
> patterns. Assuming there are are four feet in a line, the
> second-syllable rhyming can occur in different patterns such as between
> feet 1 and 2; 1 and 3; 1 and 4; 1, 2, and 3; 1, 3, and 4; 1, 2, and 4;
> and 1, 2, 3, and 4.
>
> So the Tamil situation is similar to Telugu at least in so far as 'The
> rule of line-break is based on feet count unlike the syllable count in
> Sanskrit meters'.
>
> If inter-line SSR is so massive in ancient Tamil literature, origin of
> the inter-line SSR in Sanskrit borrowed Telugu verse meters can probably
> be traced to an older Dravidian situation. That becoming a strict rule
> for Sanskrit borrowed Telugu verse meters could be specific to Telugu
> prosody.
>
> If inter-line SSR in ancient Tamil lyrical literature is proved to be a
> regular lyrical meter device, the gOpIgItam's SSR can safely get
> connected to a Tamil or Dravidian origin.
>
> Quantity rules are rigidly ingrained in Sanskrit meters; so one may
> explain the quantity correspondence of initial vowel in the SSR of
> gOpIgItam in terms of the rigidly ingrained vowel quantity pattern rules
> in Sanskrit meters. That is another problem area in the topic.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 4:50 PM, Jean-Luc Chevillard
> <jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr
> <mailto:jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr>> wrote:
>
>     Dear Professor Paturi,
>
>     This is not true!
>
>     SSR seems to happen frequently as "inter-line" in Ancient Tamil
>     literature.
>
>     I believe "intra-line" SSR is less frequent
>
>     See the characterizations (taken from the Tolkāppiyam), which I gave
>     yesterday in:
>
>     "http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2015-August/041916.html"
>
>     See also for instance, this nice example from the Tolkāppiyam's
>     characterization of the "verb" (viṉai).
>
>     TC195i
>     viṉaiyeṉap paṭuvatu vēṟṟumai koḷḷātu
>     niṉaiyuṅ kālaik kālamoṭu tōṉṟum.
>
>     We have etukai between "viṉai" and "niṉaiyum", which are both at the
>     beginning of a line
>
>     (I could provide similar examples if you are not convinced ...)
>
>     Part of the problem lies in the fact that, people tend to view the
>     rules of ancient Tamil literature through the lenses of medieval
>     treatises such as the Yāpparuṅkalam and Yāpparuṅkalak kārikai
>     (which provide a very rich terminology for many marginal examples of
>     intra-line SSR)
>
>
>     If you can provde massive evidence from ancient Tamil literature in
>     order to support your statement, please do
>
>     Your with every good wish
>
>
>     -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS)
>
>
>
>     "https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard"
>
>     "https://plus.google.com/u/0/113653379205101980081/posts/p/pub"
>
>     "https://twitter.com/JLC1956"
>
>
>
>     On 09/08/2015 16:02, Nagaraj Paturi wrote:
>
>         a. SSR of Dravidian verse and lyrical meters is intra-line and
>         the SSR
>         of Sanskrit meters either as used in languages of the south or
>         in cases
>         such as gOpIgItam of Sanskrit, is inter-line.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
> Hyderabad-500044