[INDOLOGY] Second-syllable rhyming in Dravidian

Sun Aug 9 13:16:42 UTC 2015

Looking forward for your pointers to massive evidences.

On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 6:30 PM, Jean-Luc Chevillard <
jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr> wrote:

> Dear Professor Paturi,
>
> briefly
>
> (1) the "is not true" predicate applied to the portion of your message
> which I quoted in my message.
>
> (2) thanks for confirming that you cannot provide "massive evidence" from
> Tamil literature
>
> (3) I am certainly VERY interested in learning more about Telugu meters
> and obtaining authentic information from you on that topic. If the forum
> has had enough concerning metrics (which some people consider as a dry
> subject ;-), we can also have private exchanges about the topic ...
>
> (4) I also had the earlier statement by S. Palaniappan in mind when I was
> referring to the lenses provided by Yāpparuṅkalam and Yāpparuṅkalak kārikai
> and you might remember that I immediately commented on his message and
> tried to suggest that Indira Peterson may have referred to the more
> frequent usage
>
> I believe I should not post more today :-)
>
> Yours with every good wish
>
> -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS) (in Pondicherry)
>
>
> "https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard"
>
> "https://plus.google.com/u/0/113653379205101980081/posts/p/pub"
>
> "https://twitter.com/JLC1956"
>
>
>
>
> On 09/08/2015 18:02, Nagaraj Paturi wrote:
>
>> Dear Dr Jean- Luc Chevillard,
>>
>> Your "This is not true!" probably is to my
>>
>>     >4. For a Dravidian '*origin*' of SSR to be considered the following
>> are the hurdles:
>>
>>
>>     >a. SSR of Dravidian verse and lyrical meters is intra-line and the
>> SSR of Sanskrit meters either as used in languages of the south or in cases
>> such as gOpIgItam of >Sanskrit,  is inter-line.
>>
>> Thanks for the examples of inter-line SSR from tolkAppiyam.
>>
>> Does your
>>
>>      > If you can provde massive evidence from ancient Tamil literature
>>     in order to support your statement, please do
>>
>> refer to my
>>
>>
>>     >SSR of Dravidian verse and lyrical meters is intra-line ?
>>
>> Your position with regard to this is
>>
>>     >I believe "intra-line" SSR is less frequent
>>
>> So you are asking me to provide me to provide massive number of examples
>> for intra-line SSR from ancient Tamil literature. Did I get you right?
>>
>> -No. I am not in a position right now to provide massive number of
>> examples for intra-line SSR from ancient Tamil literature. I need time
>> to browse through the corpus I have to see if this is true with ancient
>> Tamil literature.
>>
>> All that I can tell you readily with authenticity is that in Telugu,
>> which is one of the Dravidian languages, intra-line SSR is part of the
>> rules of all the native verse meters but as an alternative to intra-line
>> FSR. The rule of line-break is based on feet count unlike the syllable
>> count in Sanskrit meters. Since it is part of rule, naturally there are
>> massive number of examples in Telugu for intra-line SSR , spread all
>> over the Telugu verse literature employing native Telugu meters.
>>
>> Sri Sudalaimuthu Palaniappan in
>>
>>
>> http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2015-July/041805.html
>>
>> says,
>>
>> The second syllable rhyme can also occur within a line in different
>> patterns. Assuming there are are four feet in a line, the
>> second-syllable rhyming can occur in different patterns such as between
>> feet 1 and 2; 1 and 3; 1 and 4; 1, 2, and 3; 1, 3, and 4; 1, 2, and 4;
>> and 1, 2, 3, and 4.
>>
>> So the Tamil situation is similar to Telugu at least in so far as 'The
>> rule of line-break is based on feet count unlike the syllable count in
>> Sanskrit meters'.
>>
>> If inter-line SSR is so massive in ancient Tamil literature, origin of
>> the inter-line SSR in Sanskrit borrowed Telugu verse meters can probably
>> be traced to an older Dravidian situation. That becoming a strict rule
>> for Sanskrit borrowed Telugu verse meters could be specific to Telugu
>> prosody.
>>
>> If inter-line SSR in ancient Tamil lyrical literature is proved to be a
>> regular lyrical meter device, the gOpIgItam's SSR can safely get
>> connected to a Tamil or Dravidian origin.
>>
>> Quantity rules are rigidly ingrained in Sanskrit meters; so one may
>> explain the quantity correspondence of initial vowel in the SSR of
>> gOpIgItam in terms of the rigidly ingrained vowel quantity pattern rules
>> in Sanskrit meters. That is another problem area in the topic.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 4:50 PM, Jean-Luc Chevillard
>> <jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr
>> <mailto:jean-luc.chevillard at univ-paris-diderot.fr>> wrote:
>>
>>     Dear Professor Paturi,
>>
>>     This is not true!
>>
>>     SSR seems to happen frequently as "inter-line" in Ancient Tamil
>>     literature.
>>
>>     I believe "intra-line" SSR is less frequent
>>
>>     See the characterizations (taken from the Tolkāppiyam), which I gave
>>     yesterday in:
>>
>>     "
>> http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2015-August/041916.html
>> "
>>
>>     See also for instance, this nice example from the Tolkāppiyam's
>>     characterization of the "verb" (viṉai).
>>
>>     TC195i
>>     viṉaiyeṉap paṭuvatu vēṟṟumai koḷḷātu
>>     niṉaiyuṅ kālaik kālamoṭu tōṉṟum.
>>
>>     We have etukai between "viṉai" and "niṉaiyum", which are both at the
>>     beginning of a line
>>
>>     (I could provide similar examples if you are not convinced ...)
>>
>>     Part of the problem lies in the fact that, people tend to view the
>>     rules of ancient Tamil literature through the lenses of medieval
>>     treatises such as the Yāpparuṅkalam and Yāpparuṅkalak kārikai
>>     (which provide a very rich terminology for many marginal examples of
>>     intra-line SSR)
>>
>>
>>     If you can provde massive evidence from ancient Tamil literature in
>>     order to support your statement, please do
>>
>>     Your with every good wish
>>
>>
>>     -- Jean-Luc Chevillard (CNRS)
>>
>>
>>
>>     "https://univ-paris-diderot.academia.edu/JeanLucChevillard"
>>
>>     "https://plus.google.com/u/0/113653379205101980081/posts/p/pub"
>>
>>     "https://twitter.com/JLC1956"
>>
>>
>>
>>     On 09/08/2015 16:02, Nagaraj Paturi wrote:
>>
>>         a. SSR of Dravidian verse and lyrical meters is intra-line and
>>         the SSR
>>         of Sanskrit meters either as used in languages of the south or
>>         in cases
>>         such as gOpIgItam of Sanskrit, is inter-line.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
>> Hyderabad-500044
>>
>
>

-- 
Prof.Nagaraj Paturi
Hyderabad-500044

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