[INDOLOGY] CORRECTION: Mleccha

Thu Aug 27 23:39:38 UTC 2026

Harry Spier

On Thu, Aug 27, 2026 at 7:07 PM Harry Spier <vasishtha.spier at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear list members,
>
> James Fitzerald said:
> . . .
>
>>  but a close look at any and all "Additional Passages" in the CE of the
>> MBh that deal with Bhagadatta might shed some light on the question. It
>> would also be worthwhile to check on what different vernacular versions of
>> the epic say about him and Prāgjyotiṣa.
>>
> . . .
> A search for *bhagadatt* (not including the final *a* so you get all
> cases) in the Searchable Aggregate Library of Sanskrit
> https://searchable-sanskrit-library.org/
> will give all occurances in
> CE of the Mahabharata,
>  Index to the Names in the Mahabharata by Sorensen
> Mahabharata Cultural Index by Mehendale
> mahābhārata-tātparyanirṇaya by mādhva
> and many others
>
> Similarly with a search for *prāg\-?jyotiṣ *will give you all
> occurrences of prāgjyotiṣ and prāg-jyotiṣ .  (type it exactly as  prāg\-?jyotiṣ
> to get both prāgjyotiṣ and prāg-jyotiṣ )
> Note: M-W dictionary has prāg-jyotiṣa mfn. lighted from the east ŚāṅkhGṛ.
> ( referring  to ŚāṅkhGṛ. 6.2.3 )
>
> Harry Spier
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 27, 2026 at 6:17 PM Fitzgerald, James via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear Hans,
>>
>> That is conceivable, but I don't see how that could erase the explicitly
>> western localization of Bhagadatta at MBh 2.13.13 (*muraṃ ca narakaṃ
>> caiva śāsti yo yavanādhipau / aparyantabalo rājā pratīcyāṃ varuṇo yathā //*
>> MBh 2.13.13). I spoke up, to begin with, after reading Dr. Rosati's post
>> assigning Prāgjyotiṣa to the east alone. Perhaps someone has previously
>> presented the evidence showing Prāgjyotiṣa to be exclusively, or
>> prevailingly, a reference to the East after a certain point in time, post
>> Kalhaṇa clearly, (maybe those cited by Dr. Rosati do that). I am not saying
>> I doubt the observation of Kartunnen I quoted yesterday, but it implies an
>> assertion of negative fact. I am not going to do it anytime soon, but a
>> close look at any and all "Additional Passages" in the CE of the MBh that
>> deal with Bhagadatta might shed some light on the question. It would also
>> be worthwhile to check on what different vernacular versions of the epic
>> say about him and Prāgjyotiṣa.
>>
>> Of course, to return to the initial issue, people on either the western
>> or eastern frontier were probably perceived as "speaking incorrectly." That
>> issue has been aired  for the northwest at some length on this forum a time
>> or two, years back.
>>
>> All the best, Jim Fitzgerald
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 27, 2026 at 12:03 PM Hock, Hans Henrich <hhhock at illinois.edu>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear James,
>>>
>>> Another possibility would be that the *prāg* in *prājyotiṣa* was
>>> reinterpreted as referring to an eastern region.
>>>
>>> Best wishes,
>>>
>>> Hans Henrich
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 26, 2026, at 17:03, Fitzgerald, James via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear Walter (if I may),
>>>
>>> Clearly there were at least two important locales called Prāgjyotiṣa; as
>>> you suggest, the name does not exclude western locations. If, to extend
>>> some of your analysis of the name, it might have been understood as “Early,
>>> or Earliest, Light,” then any location at a relatively higher elevation
>>> than its neighbors would be a place receiving the light of the rising sun
>>> before (*prāk*) the surrounding area, and therefore suitable for that
>>> name.
>>>
>>> It might be the saga of Bhagadatta and his elephants that fixes the
>>> priority of the eastern Prāgjyotiṣa in the memory of the tradition. My copy
>>> of Thomas Trautmann’s book *Elephants and Kings* is in storage at the
>>> moment, but if I remember correctly, he noted a pronounced eastern
>>> association with the training and use of elephants. I’ll have to go
>>> retrieve the book when I get the spare time.
>>>
>>> With all best wishes, Jim Fitzgerald
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Aug 26, 2026 at 3:24 PM W S <walter.slaje at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Professor Fitzgerald,
>>>>
>>>> Due to my lack of expertise in the epic-Purāṇic tradition, I am unable
>>>> to engage in any serious speculation. However, off the top of my head, I
>>>> can think of one possible explanation for how such confusion might have
>>>> arisen in the said tradition: the original existence of two places with the
>>>> same name, Prāgjyotiṣa, in the east and west. The confusion of the western
>>>> city name with the eastern one, and its subsequent assignment to the
>>>> latter, may have arisen for a reason rooted in the meaning of *
>>>> prāgjyotiṣa*.
>>>>
>>>> If the compound were understood literally as 'light *in* the East', it
>>>> would naturally be associated with a region in the East. This would also
>>>> have confirmed the eastern location of Prāgjyotiṣa for those who
>>>> interpreted it in this way.
>>>>
>>>> Similarly, it cannot be ruled out that the city of Prāgjyotiṣa,
>>>> situated in the west, was named precisely because the compound could be
>>>> understood as 'illuminated *from* the east' (*prāgjyotiṣa*), as
>>>> confirmed by our dictionaries. That which is illuminated from the east lies
>>>> in the west. Given the toponymic coincidence of the two Prāgjyotiṣas, the
>>>> transfer of the name from west to east - prompted by the rather
>>>> obvious locative karmadhāraya "in the east" - may additionally have become
>>>> established and consolidated through legends, resulting in the gradual
>>>> fading of the western Prāgjyotiṣa from people's consciousness.
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>> Walter Slaje
>>>>
>>>> Am Mi., 26. Aug. 2026 um 19:22 Uhr schrieb Fitzgerald, James <
>>>> james_fitzgerald at brown.edu>:
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Professor Slaje,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for this interesting collation. When one reads it and looks
>>>>> too at the assemblage of evidence in Kartunnen’s *Yonas and Yavanas
>>>>> in Indian Literature*, and at E. H. Johnston’s review of Tarn’s first
>>>>> edition of *Greeks in Bactria and India* (“Demetrias in Sind?” JRAS,
>>>>> 1939, 217–240) (I am not able to read Rönnow’s “Kirāta” from 1936 [*Le
>>>>> Monde oriental*, 30, 90–170], to which Kartunnen referred), one
>>>>> wonders how the western localizaton of Prāgjyotiṣa came to be so thoroughly
>>>>> forgotten (completely absent, I believe, from Schwatzberg’s *Historical
>>>>> Atlas*, which gives only the eastern location).
>>>>>
>>>>> I wonder how it came about that, as Kartunnen, 347, note 167,
>>>>> observed: “Later on, Prāgjyotiṣa came to be more or less synonymous with
>>>>> Assam, and Assamese inscriptions count Bhagadatta among the royal
>>>>> ancestors, as was shown by Jenkins as early as 1840.” It seems that somehow
>>>>> MBh 5.4.11d’s description of Bhagadatta as *pūrvasāgaravāsin*
>>>>> outweighed MBh 2.13.13cd’s description of him as *aparyantabalo rājā
>>>>> pratīcyāṃ varuṇo yathā* (with no variants recorded; but note that for
>>>>> 5.4.11d, 3 of the Malayālam mss. lack this reading in pāda d altogether [M2
>>>>> has it] and one, M1, has it as a supralineal addition; M1.3.4.5 substitute
>>>>> the names of Hārdikya and Āhuka, drawn from the upcoming 12b [where M3-5
>>>>> substitute the names Kātha [?] and Śaka] for the moved Hārdikya and Āhuka).
>>>>> As Kartunnen (idem) notes apropos MBh 5.4.11d: “But Assam is not by the
>>>>> sea.” If 5.4.11d did actually refer to Assam, “*pūrvasāgara*” might
>>>>> describe the Brahmaputra River.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't have any answer for my question, just puzzlement.
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards, Jim Fitzgerald
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Aug 26, 2026 at 7:39 AM W S <walter.slaje at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> I would like to draw your attention to another source that has been
>>>>>> neglected so far, in my perception. It corroborates Karttunen’s argument
>>>>>> (2015: 37, note 166) that Prāgjyotiṣa should rather be located in the
>>>>>> north-west. The instances from Kalhaṇa quoted below suggest that he and his
>>>>>> fellow citizens believed the epic Prāgjyotiṣa to be set in the north.
>>>>>> However, it is possible that Kalhaṇa was even aware of a city with that
>>>>>> name in that region.
>>>>>> [The translations are Stein’s with occasional supplements]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *RT 2.147*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *jugopa Gopādityākhyaṃ Kaśmīrendrajigīṣayā |*
>>>>>> *Yudhiṣṭhiraprapautraṃ hi Gāndhārādhipatis tadā* || 2.145 ||
>>>>>> „The king of *Gandhāra *guarded indeed at that time a great-grandson
>>>>>> of * Yudhiṣṭhira* [I.]*, *called *Gopāditya, *with a view to
>>>>>> vanquishing the king of *Kaśmīr*.“
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *vasann aprāptasāmrājyaḥ sa tatra tanayaṃ kramāt |*
>>>>>> *avāpa […] amoghaṃ Meghavāhanam* || 2.146 ||
>>>>>> „While residing there [in Gandhāra] without obtaining sovereignty
>>>>>> [over *Kaśmīr*] this [prince* Gopāditya*] begot in due course a son, *Meghavāhana
>>>>>> *by name, […].“
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *sa yuvā **pitur ādeśād vaiṣṇavānvayajanmanaḥ |*
>>>>>> *rāṣṭraṃ Prāgjyotiṣendrasya yayau kanyāsvayaṃvare* || 2.147 ||
>>>>>> yuvā Hultzsch 1915/2013; VB] *tatra* Stein
>>>>>> „By the advice of his father [Gopāditya], that youth [*Meghavāhana*]
>>>>>> went to the realm of the king of *Prāgjyotiṣa *who was descended
>>>>>> from the race of Viṣṇu, for the Svayaṃvara of [that king’s] daughter.“
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *RT 4.171*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *sa prāviśat suvistīrṇam apathenOttarāpatham* || 4.163cd ||
>>>>>> „[King Lalitāditya] entered by pathless tracks the far-spreading
>>>>>> northern region (*uttarāpatha*).“
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> … Kāmbojas (165), Tuḥkharas (166), Bhauṭṭas (168), Darads (169). The
>>>>>> wind of the northern region (*uttarānila*) (170) …
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *śūnye Prāgjyotiṣapure nirjihānaṃ dadarśa saḥ* |
>>>>>> *dhūpadhūmaṃ* […] || 4.171a–c ||
>>>>>> "As the town of *Prāgjyotiṣa *was deserted, he saw the smoke of
>>>>>> incense […]"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *marīcikāvitīrṇārṇovibhrame bālukāmbudhau* || 4.172ab ||
>>>>>> "In the ‘sea of sand’ (*vālukāmbudhi*), where the mirage produced
>>>>>> the illusion of a stream, […]"
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Note by Stein: „[…] For *Prāgjyotiṣa, *see note ii.147. The ‘sea of
>>>>>> sand’ *(vālukāmbudhi) *mentioned in verse iv.172, and again in the
>>>>>> story related iv.279 sqq., is distinctly placed in the north (see iv. 306),
>>>>>> and seems to imply a distant knowledge of the desert tracts of Eastern
>>>>>> Turkestan and Tibet.“
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *RT 8.2811*
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The entire scene is set exclusively in northern Kashmir, on the
>>>>>> border with the land of the Dards. The Dards join forces with rebellious
>>>>>> barons from the Kashmir Valley and, with the support of Central Asian
>>>>>> Muslims, go to war with King Jayasiṃha with the aim of overthrowing him and
>>>>>> installing Bhoja as king.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *prasthitas tatpramāthāya Śamālais so ’nvabadhyata* |
>>>>>> *vrajan Prāgjyotiṣaṃ hantum Pārthas saṃśaptakair iva* || 8.2811 ||
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> When this [minister of the king, Rilhaṇa,] had set out to destroy
>>>>>> [Loṭhaka of the rebels], he was pursued on the march by the inhabitants of *Śamālā
>>>>>> *as Pārtha [had been] by the confederates when he went to slay the
>>>>>> king of Prāgjyotiṣa.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Note by Stein: „The story of Arjuna’s fight with the ‘confederates’ *(saṃśaptaka)
>>>>>> *is found in *Mahābh. *vii., xxvii.1 sqq.“
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given the context, it seems rather unlikely that Kalhaṇa would have
>>>>>> chosen this comparison with Prāgjyotiṣa from the epic if he and his
>>>>>> contemporary audience had not situated that city mentioned in the MBh in
>>>>>> the wider northern area, as the battles they witnessed actually took place
>>>>>> in northern Kashmir.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Regards, WS
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Am Di., 25. Aug. 2026 um 22:13 Uhr schrieb Fitzgerald, James via
>>>>>> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Madhav,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wouldn't want to hazard any conjectures about who exactly Naraka
>>>>>>> and Mura might have been among the foreign rulers in the northwest. Perhaps
>>>>>>> some historians have some ideas or other pertinent evidence. Were the
>>>>>>> Kushanas ever styled as "yavana", in coins, inscriptions, or Puranic
>>>>>>> histories?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2026 at 2:06 PM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear Jim,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>      This is eye-opening to me. I was not aware of the Western
>>>>>>>> Pragjyotisha, and the identification of Naraka with the Greeks. Does this
>>>>>>>> in some way help dating of these passages, if not of the composition of the
>>>>>>>> epic itself?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Madhav
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>>>>>>>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>>>>>>>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>>>>>>>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>>>>>>>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies,
>>>>>>>> Bangalore, India
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2026 at 10:10 AM Fitzgerald, James via INDOLOGY <
>>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear colleagues,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It is pertinent to this discussion that there seems to have been a
>>>>>>>>> western locus of Prāgjyotiṣa as well as an eastern one. It is mentioned in
>>>>>>>>> a portion of Nārāyaṇa's prophecy of future interventions in the terrestrial
>>>>>>>>> world at MBh 12.326.82-85, which episodes have associations with western
>>>>>>>>> India.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I quote: “At the final juncture of the Dvāpara and Kali Ages,
>>>>>>>>> there will be an appearance of me in Mathurā because of Kaṃsa. [82] Having
>>>>>>>>> killed
>>>>>>>>> a large number of Dānavas then, who were thorns to the Gods, I
>>>>>>>>> shall make Kuśasthalī, which is the city Dvārakā, my dwelling. [83]
>>>>>>>>> Dwelling
>>>>>>>>> in that city, I shall kill that annoyer of Aditi Naraka, son of
>>>>>>>>> Earth, and Mura and the Dānava Pīṭha.[84] Having killed the preeminent
>>>>>>>>> Dānavas, I shall lead the delightful city of Prāgjyotiṣa, which
>>>>>>>>> possesses prolific riches, to Kuśasthalī. [85]"
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In an endnote to Kuśasthalī, I write: "326.85. Prāgjyotiṣa was the
>>>>>>>>> capital city of the Asura Naraka and the locus of Kṛṣṇa’s killing him (HV
>>>>>>>>> 91.53–57). His “leading” Prāgjyotiṣa to Kuśasthalī likely refers to what is
>>>>>>>>> described at HV 97.1: “The road to the town of Prāgjyotisha has been made
>>>>>>>>> safe once again” (trans. Brodbeck). This entire HV śloka is identical to
>>>>>>>>> MBh 3.13.26, though the context in the MBh is one of listing great deeds of
>>>>>>>>> Kṛṣṇa. MBh 2.13.13 identifies Naraka (and Mura as well) as Greek
>>>>>>>>> rulers (yavanādhipau) who were under the rule of Bhagadatta, “a king of
>>>>>>>>> unlimited power, who ruled in the West like Varuṇa.” It seems
>>>>>>>>> unlikely that Naraka’s Prāgjyotiṣa is the same as the Prāgjyotiṣa in the
>>>>>>>>> far northeast of the subcontinent, in modern day Assam, which is
>>>>>>>>> generally considered to be where the Prāgjyotiṣa governed by the
>>>>>>>>> elephant-riding Bhagadatta was located. Bhagadatta is described at MBh
>>>>>>>>> 5.4.11d as “dwelling by the eastern ocean.” At the same time, it was in the
>>>>>>>>> far north that Arjuna encountered and subdued Bhagadatta in the digvijaya
>>>>>>>>> of Yudhiṣṭhira’s Rājasūya, 2.23.13–26. It would seem that in
>>>>>>>>> addition to the far eastern Prāgjyotiṣa, there was another one, the “home
>>>>>>>>> of the western Asuras” (Hopkins, Epic Mythology, 257; see too 50–51), and
>>>>>>>>> that Bhagadatta came somehow to be identified with both."
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best, Jim Fitzgerald
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2026 at 8:55 AM Martin Straube via INDOLOGY <
>>>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dear Patrick,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As usual, M. Mayrhofer, Etymologisches Worterbuch des
>>>>>>>>>> Altindoarischen, is an indispensable source for linguistic matters (see
>>>>>>>>>> vol. II, p. 389). Indian primary sources regarding mlecchas and other
>>>>>>>>>> foreigners have been exhaustively compiled and discussed in K. Karttunen,
>>>>>>>>>> Yonas And Yavanas In Indian Literature, Helsinki 2015 [= Studia Orientalia,
>>>>>>>>>> 116]. Check the index and the searchable file which can be downloaded from
>>>>>>>>>> here: https://journal.fi/store/issue/view/4184
>>>>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://journal.fi/store/issue/view/4184__;!!DZ3fjg!9KKYDiWwIeVFd93GqhDLvT1y__idfTZksDVyXx0VY1X3mD5sLL-Lx5Ba50F-VlLvI8A0T7qLonZtp79nBTo8suyvAqpS$>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Best
>>>>>>>>>> Martin Straube
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Patrick Olivelle via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
>>>>>>>>>> schrieb am Montag, 24. August 2026 um 14:31:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> > Dear All:
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > A colleague in India who is not a member of this list asked me
>>>>>>>>>> for secondary works, as well as primary sources, for the concept of
>>>>>>>>>> “mleccha” in ancient India. The work by Parasher-Sen is well known. But are
>>>>>>>>>> there others? With thanks and best wishes,
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > Patrick
>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
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