[INDOLOGY] Mleccha

Thu Aug 27 23:07:33 UTC 2026

Dear list members,

James Fitzerald said:
. . .

>  but a close look at any and all "Additional Passages" in the CE of the
> MBh that deal with Bhagadatta might shed some light on the question. It
> would also be worthwhile to check on what different vernacular versions of
> the epic say about him and Prāgjyotiṣa.
>
. . .
A search for *bagadatt* (not including the final *a* so you get all cases)
in the Searchable Aggregate Library of Sanskrit
https://searchable-sanskrit-library.org/
will give all occurances in
CE of the Mahabharata,
 Index to the Names in the Mahabharata by Sorensen
Mahabharata Cultural Index by Mehendale
mahābhārata-tātparyanirṇaya by mādhva
and many others

Similarly with a search for *prāg\-?jyotiṣ *will give you all
occurrences of prāgjyotiṣ and prāg-jyotiṣ .  (type it exactly as  prāg\-?jyotiṣ
to get both prāgjyotiṣ and prāg-jyotiṣ )
Note: M-W dictionary has prāg-jyotiṣa mfn. lighted from the east ŚāṅkhGṛ. (
referring  to ŚāṅkhGṛ. 6.2.3 )

Harry Spier

On Thu, Aug 27, 2026 at 6:17 PM Fitzgerald, James via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Dear Hans,
>
> That is conceivable, but I don't see how that could erase the explicitly
> western localization of Bhagadatta at MBh 2.13.13 (*muraṃ ca narakaṃ
> caiva śāsti yo yavanādhipau / aparyantabalo rājā pratīcyāṃ varuṇo yathā //*
> MBh 2.13.13). I spoke up, to begin with, after reading Dr. Rosati's post
> assigning Prāgjyotiṣa to the east alone. Perhaps someone has previously
> presented the evidence showing Prāgjyotiṣa to be exclusively, or
> prevailingly, a reference to the East after a certain point in time, post
> Kalhaṇa clearly, (maybe those cited by Dr. Rosati do that). I am not saying
> I doubt the observation of Kartunnen I quoted yesterday, but it implies an
> assertion of negative fact. I am not going to do it anytime soon, but a
> close look at any and all "Additional Passages" in the CE of the MBh that
> deal with Bhagadatta might shed some light on the question. It would also
> be worthwhile to check on what different vernacular versions of the epic
> say about him and Prāgjyotiṣa.
>
> Of course, to return to the initial issue, people on either the western or
> eastern frontier were probably perceived as "speaking incorrectly." That
> issue has been aired  for the northwest at some length on this forum a time
> or two, years back.
>
> All the best, Jim Fitzgerald
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 27, 2026 at 12:03 PM Hock, Hans Henrich <hhhock at illinois.edu>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear James,
>>
>> Another possibility would be that the *prāg* in *prājyotiṣa* was
>> reinterpreted as referring to an eastern region.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Hans Henrich
>>
>>
>> On Aug 26, 2026, at 17:03, Fitzgerald, James via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Walter (if I may),
>>
>> Clearly there were at least two important locales called Prāgjyotiṣa; as
>> you suggest, the name does not exclude western locations. If, to extend
>> some of your analysis of the name, it might have been understood as “Early,
>> or Earliest, Light,” then any location at a relatively higher elevation
>> than its neighbors would be a place receiving the light of the rising sun
>> before (*prāk*) the surrounding area, and therefore suitable for that
>> name.
>>
>> It might be the saga of Bhagadatta and his elephants that fixes the
>> priority of the eastern Prāgjyotiṣa in the memory of the tradition. My copy
>> of Thomas Trautmann’s book *Elephants and Kings* is in storage at the
>> moment, but if I remember correctly, he noted a pronounced eastern
>> association with the training and use of elephants. I’ll have to go
>> retrieve the book when I get the spare time.
>>
>> With all best wishes, Jim Fitzgerald
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 26, 2026 at 3:24 PM W S <walter.slaje at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Professor Fitzgerald,
>>>
>>> Due to my lack of expertise in the epic-Purāṇic tradition, I am unable
>>> to engage in any serious speculation. However, off the top of my head, I
>>> can think of one possible explanation for how such confusion might have
>>> arisen in the said tradition: the original existence of two places with the
>>> same name, Prāgjyotiṣa, in the east and west. The confusion of the western
>>> city name with the eastern one, and its subsequent assignment to the
>>> latter, may have arisen for a reason rooted in the meaning of *
>>> prāgjyotiṣa*.
>>>
>>> If the compound were understood literally as 'light *in* the East', it
>>> would naturally be associated with a region in the East. This would also
>>> have confirmed the eastern location of Prāgjyotiṣa for those who
>>> interpreted it in this way.
>>>
>>> Similarly, it cannot be ruled out that the city of Prāgjyotiṣa, situated
>>> in the west, was named precisely because the compound could be understood
>>> as 'illuminated *from* the east' (*prāgjyotiṣa*), as confirmed by our
>>> dictionaries. That which is illuminated from the east lies in the west.
>>> Given the toponymic coincidence of the two Prāgjyotiṣas, the transfer of
>>> the name from west to east - prompted by the rather obvious locative
>>> karmadhāraya "in the east" - may additionally have become established and
>>> consolidated through legends, resulting in the gradual fading of the
>>> western Prāgjyotiṣa from people's consciousness.
>>>
>>> Kind regards,
>>> Walter Slaje
>>>
>>> Am Mi., 26. Aug. 2026 um 19:22 Uhr schrieb Fitzgerald, James <
>>> james_fitzgerald at brown.edu>:
>>>
>>>> Dear Professor Slaje,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for this interesting collation. When one reads it and looks
>>>> too at the assemblage of evidence in Kartunnen’s *Yonas and Yavanas in
>>>> Indian Literature*, and at E. H. Johnston’s review of Tarn’s first
>>>> edition of *Greeks in Bactria and India* (“Demetrias in Sind?” JRAS,
>>>> 1939, 217–240) (I am not able to read Rönnow’s “Kirāta” from 1936 [*Le
>>>> Monde oriental*, 30, 90–170], to which Kartunnen referred), one
>>>> wonders how the western localizaton of Prāgjyotiṣa came to be so thoroughly
>>>> forgotten (completely absent, I believe, from Schwatzberg’s *Historical
>>>> Atlas*, which gives only the eastern location).
>>>>
>>>> I wonder how it came about that, as Kartunnen, 347, note 167, observed:
>>>> “Later on, Prāgjyotiṣa came to be more or less synonymous with Assam, and
>>>> Assamese inscriptions count Bhagadatta among the royal ancestors, as was
>>>> shown by Jenkins as early as 1840.” It seems that somehow MBh 5.4.11d’s
>>>> description of Bhagadatta as *pūrvasāgaravāsin* outweighed MBh
>>>> 2.13.13cd’s description of him as *aparyantabalo rājā pratīcyāṃ varuṇo
>>>> yathā* (with no variants recorded; but note that for 5.4.11d, 3 of the
>>>> Malayālam mss. lack this reading in pāda d altogether [M2 has it] and one,
>>>> M1, has it as a supralineal addition; M1.3.4.5 substitute the names of
>>>> Hārdikya and Āhuka, drawn from the upcoming 12b [where M3-5 substitute the
>>>> names Kātha [?] and Śaka] for the moved Hārdikya and Āhuka). As Kartunnen
>>>> (idem) notes apropos MBh 5.4.11d: “But Assam is not by the sea.” If 5.4.11d
>>>> did actually refer to Assam, “*pūrvasāgara*” might describe the
>>>> Brahmaputra River.
>>>>
>>>> I don't have any answer for my question, just puzzlement.
>>>>
>>>> Regards, Jim Fitzgerald
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Aug 26, 2026 at 7:39 AM W S <walter.slaje at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I would like to draw your attention to another source that has been
>>>>> neglected so far, in my perception. It corroborates Karttunen’s argument
>>>>> (2015: 37, note 166) that Prāgjyotiṣa should rather be located in the
>>>>> north-west. The instances from Kalhaṇa quoted below suggest that he and his
>>>>> fellow citizens believed the epic Prāgjyotiṣa to be set in the north.
>>>>> However, it is possible that Kalhaṇa was even aware of a city with that
>>>>> name in that region.
>>>>> [The translations are Stein’s with occasional supplements]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *RT 2.147*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *jugopa Gopādityākhyaṃ Kaśmīrendrajigīṣayā |*
>>>>> *Yudhiṣṭhiraprapautraṃ hi Gāndhārādhipatis tadā* || 2.145 ||
>>>>> „The king of *Gandhāra *guarded indeed at that time a great-grandson
>>>>> of * Yudhiṣṭhira* [I.]*, *called *Gopāditya, *with a view to
>>>>> vanquishing the king of *Kaśmīr*.“
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *vasann aprāptasāmrājyaḥ sa tatra tanayaṃ kramāt |*
>>>>> *avāpa […] amoghaṃ Meghavāhanam* || 2.146 ||
>>>>> „While residing there [in Gandhāra] without obtaining sovereignty
>>>>> [over *Kaśmīr*] this [prince* Gopāditya*] begot in due course a son, *Meghavāhana
>>>>> *by name, […].“
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *sa yuvā **pitur ādeśād vaiṣṇavānvayajanmanaḥ |*
>>>>> *rāṣṭraṃ Prāgjyotiṣendrasya yayau kanyāsvayaṃvare* || 2.147 ||
>>>>> yuvā Hultzsch 1915/2013; VB] *tatra* Stein
>>>>> „By the advice of his father [Gopāditya], that youth [*Meghavāhana*]
>>>>> went to the realm of the king of *Prāgjyotiṣa *who was descended from
>>>>> the race of Viṣṇu, for the Svayaṃvara of [that king’s] daughter.“
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *RT 4.171*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *sa prāviśat suvistīrṇam apathenOttarāpatham* || 4.163cd ||
>>>>> „[King Lalitāditya] entered by pathless tracks the far-spreading
>>>>> northern region (*uttarāpatha*).“
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> … Kāmbojas (165), Tuḥkharas (166), Bhauṭṭas (168), Darads (169). The
>>>>> wind of the northern region (*uttarānila*) (170) …
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *śūnye Prāgjyotiṣapure nirjihānaṃ dadarśa saḥ* |
>>>>> *dhūpadhūmaṃ* […] || 4.171a–c ||
>>>>> "As the town of *Prāgjyotiṣa *was deserted, he saw the smoke of
>>>>> incense […]"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *marīcikāvitīrṇārṇovibhrame bālukāmbudhau* || 4.172ab ||
>>>>> "In the ‘sea of sand’ (*vālukāmbudhi*), where the mirage produced the
>>>>> illusion of a stream, […]"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Note by Stein: „[…] For *Prāgjyotiṣa, *see note ii.147. The ‘sea of
>>>>> sand’ *(vālukāmbudhi) *mentioned in verse iv.172, and again in the
>>>>> story related iv.279 sqq., is distinctly placed in the north (see iv. 306),
>>>>> and seems to imply a distant knowledge of the desert tracts of Eastern
>>>>> Turkestan and Tibet.“
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *RT 8.2811*
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The entire scene is set exclusively in northern Kashmir, on the border
>>>>> with the land of the Dards. The Dards join forces with rebellious barons
>>>>> from the Kashmir Valley and, with the support of Central Asian Muslims, go
>>>>> to war with King Jayasiṃha with the aim of overthrowing him and installing
>>>>> Bhoja as king.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> *prasthitas tatpramāthāya Śamālais so ’nvabadhyata* |
>>>>> *vrajan Prāgjyotiṣaṃ hantum Pārthas saṃśaptakair iva* || 8.2811 ||
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> When this [minister of the king, Rilhaṇa,] had set out to destroy
>>>>> [Loṭhaka of the rebels], he was pursued on the march by the inhabitants of *Śamālā
>>>>> *as Pārtha [had been] by the confederates when he went to slay the
>>>>> king of Prāgjyotiṣa.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Note by Stein: „The story of Arjuna’s fight with the ‘confederates’ *(saṃśaptaka)
>>>>> *is found in *Mahābh. *vii., xxvii.1 sqq.“
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Given the context, it seems rather unlikely that Kalhaṇa would have
>>>>> chosen this comparison with Prāgjyotiṣa from the epic if he and his
>>>>> contemporary audience had not situated that city mentioned in the MBh in
>>>>> the wider northern area, as the battles they witnessed actually took place
>>>>> in northern Kashmir.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards, WS
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Am Di., 25. Aug. 2026 um 22:13 Uhr schrieb Fitzgerald, James via
>>>>> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Madhav,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I wouldn't want to hazard any conjectures about who exactly Naraka
>>>>>> and Mura might have been among the foreign rulers in the northwest. Perhaps
>>>>>> some historians have some ideas or other pertinent evidence. Were the
>>>>>> Kushanas ever styled as "yavana", in coins, inscriptions, or Puranic
>>>>>> histories?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2026 at 2:06 PM Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Jim,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      This is eye-opening to me. I was not aware of the Western
>>>>>>> Pragjyotisha, and the identification of Naraka with the Greeks. Does this
>>>>>>> in some way help dating of these passages, if not of the composition of the
>>>>>>> epic itself?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Madhav
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>>>>>>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>>>>>>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>>>>>>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>>>>>>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies,
>>>>>>> Bangalore, India
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2026 at 10:10 AM Fitzgerald, James via INDOLOGY <
>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear colleagues,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It is pertinent to this discussion that there seems to have been a
>>>>>>>> western locus of Prāgjyotiṣa as well as an eastern one. It is mentioned in
>>>>>>>> a portion of Nārāyaṇa's prophecy of future interventions in the terrestrial
>>>>>>>> world at MBh 12.326.82-85, which episodes have associations with western
>>>>>>>> India.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I quote: “At the final juncture of the Dvāpara and Kali Ages, there
>>>>>>>> will be an appearance of me in Mathurā because of Kaṃsa. [82] Having killed
>>>>>>>> a large number of Dānavas then, who were thorns to the Gods, I
>>>>>>>> shall make Kuśasthalī, which is the city Dvārakā, my dwelling. [83]
>>>>>>>> Dwelling
>>>>>>>> in that city, I shall kill that annoyer of Aditi Naraka, son of
>>>>>>>> Earth, and Mura and the Dānava Pīṭha.[84] Having killed the preeminent
>>>>>>>> Dānavas, I shall lead the delightful city of Prāgjyotiṣa, which
>>>>>>>> possesses prolific riches, to Kuśasthalī. [85]"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In an endnote to Kuśasthalī, I write: "326.85. Prāgjyotiṣa was the
>>>>>>>> capital city of the Asura Naraka and the locus of Kṛṣṇa’s killing him (HV
>>>>>>>> 91.53–57). His “leading” Prāgjyotiṣa to Kuśasthalī likely refers to what is
>>>>>>>> described at HV 97.1: “The road to the town of Prāgjyotisha has been made
>>>>>>>> safe once again” (trans. Brodbeck). This entire HV śloka is identical to
>>>>>>>> MBh 3.13.26, though the context in the MBh is one of listing great deeds of
>>>>>>>> Kṛṣṇa. MBh 2.13.13 identifies Naraka (and Mura as well) as Greek
>>>>>>>> rulers (yavanādhipau) who were under the rule of Bhagadatta, “a king of
>>>>>>>> unlimited power, who ruled in the West like Varuṇa.” It seems
>>>>>>>> unlikely that Naraka’s Prāgjyotiṣa is the same as the Prāgjyotiṣa in the
>>>>>>>> far northeast of the subcontinent, in modern day Assam, which is
>>>>>>>> generally considered to be where the Prāgjyotiṣa governed by the
>>>>>>>> elephant-riding Bhagadatta was located. Bhagadatta is described at MBh
>>>>>>>> 5.4.11d as “dwelling by the eastern ocean.” At the same time, it was in the
>>>>>>>> far north that Arjuna encountered and subdued Bhagadatta in the digvijaya
>>>>>>>> of Yudhiṣṭhira’s Rājasūya, 2.23.13–26. It would seem that in
>>>>>>>> addition to the far eastern Prāgjyotiṣa, there was another one, the “home
>>>>>>>> of the western Asuras” (Hopkins, Epic Mythology, 257; see too 50–51), and
>>>>>>>> that Bhagadatta came somehow to be identified with both."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best, Jim Fitzgerald
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Aug 25, 2026 at 8:55 AM Martin Straube via INDOLOGY <
>>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear Patrick,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> As usual, M. Mayrhofer, Etymologisches Worterbuch des
>>>>>>>>> Altindoarischen, is an indispensable source for linguistic matters (see
>>>>>>>>> vol. II, p. 389). Indian primary sources regarding mlecchas and other
>>>>>>>>> foreigners have been exhaustively compiled and discussed in K. Karttunen,
>>>>>>>>> Yonas And Yavanas In Indian Literature, Helsinki 2015 [= Studia Orientalia,
>>>>>>>>> 116]. Check the index and the searchable file which can be downloaded from
>>>>>>>>> here: https://journal.fi/store/issue/view/4184
>>>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://journal.fi/store/issue/view/4184__;!!DZ3fjg!9KKYDiWwIeVFd93GqhDLvT1y__idfTZksDVyXx0VY1X3mD5sLL-Lx5Ba50F-VlLvI8A0T7qLonZtp79nBTo8suyvAqpS$>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best
>>>>>>>>> Martin Straube
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Patrick Olivelle via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
>>>>>>>>> schrieb am Montag, 24. August 2026 um 14:31:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> > Dear All:
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > A colleague in India who is not a member of this list asked me
>>>>>>>>> for secondary works, as well as primary sources, for the concept of
>>>>>>>>> “mleccha” in ancient India. The work by Parasher-Sen is well known. But are
>>>>>>>>> there others? With thanks and best wishes,
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > Patrick
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>> > INDOLOGY mailing list
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>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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