[INDOLOGY] Claude

Fri Aug 8 18:59:29 UTC 2025

I agree with you.

Madhav

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 11:54 AM Antonia Ruppel <antonia.ruppel at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Dear all,
>
> I think the general caveat for use of AI holds here, too: never ask an AI
> about something where you don't know what you want the answer to be,
> because if you do, you will have no way of knowing whether the answer is
> correct or just convincing.
>
> In this case I'd assume that the esteemed colleagues involved in this
> conversation are fully able to check whether the claims made by Claude et
> al. are correct or not; but here, too, one ought not to assume that
> something is actually the case just because an AI has claimed it to be so.
>
> All my best,
>       Antonia
>
>
> On Fri, 8 Aug 2025 at 20:47, Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> Dear Rolf,
>>
>>      I am not an expert in all these languages. But from the information
>> provided by Open.AI and Claude.AI, it seems to me that the Persian *jigar
>> *is cognate with Sanskrit *yakr̥t*. The reason I am reluctant to think *jagrī
>> *coming from Persian *jigar*, is that such a borrowing does not explain
>> the *ī *at the end of *jagrī*, and then we have to assume that somehow
>> the *i *of *jigar *changed to *a* of *jagrī*. That requires too many ad
>> hoc changes. On the other hand, in numerous modern IA languages, the *y *of
>> Sanskrit is replaced with *j*, and the *r̥ *is routinely pronounced as *rī
>> *in North India. The loss of final Sanskrit consonants is a common
>> feature of all Prakrit languages. Given these considerations, I see more of
>> a clear line of connection between Sanskrit *yakr̥t* and your *jagrī*,
>> than to the Persian word. This is my thinking.
>>
>> Madhav
>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore,
>> India
>>
>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 8, 2025 at 9:57 AM Rolf Heinrich Koch <
>> rolfheiner.koch at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Madhav,
>>>
>>> just learning the Open.ai system, I asked Open.ai exactly the same as
>>> you did with Claude.ai.
>>>
>>> This is the answer (which I cannot fully understand):
>>>
>>> The Persian word *jigar* (جگر), meaning *“liver”*, has a
>>> well-established history within the *Indo-Iranian branch* of the *Indo-European
>>> language family*. Here’s the full etymological breakdown:
>>> ------------------------------
>>> 🔹 1. *Persian jigar (جگر) – meaning: liver*
>>>
>>>    -
>>>
>>>    In *Classical Persian*, *jigar* refers both to:
>>>    -
>>>
>>>       The *anatomical liver*, and
>>>       -
>>>
>>>       *Metaphorical qualities* like *courage*, *passion*, and *deep
>>>       emotion* — much like how “heart” is used in English.
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> 🔹 2. *Etymology: from Middle and Old Iranian*
>>>
>>>    -
>>>
>>>    *Middle Persian*:
>>>    -
>>>
>>>       The word appears as *jigar* (same as modern) or *jekar*.
>>>       -
>>>
>>>    *Old Persian*:
>>>    -
>>>
>>>       The word is not directly attested, but is *reconstructed* based
>>>       on related Avestan and Indo-Iranian forms.
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> 🔹 3. *Reconstructed Indo-Iranian and Proto-Indo-European (PIE) roots*
>>>
>>>    -
>>>
>>>    *Avestan* (East Iranian):
>>>    -
>>>
>>>       *yakarə* (liver) – a clear cognate.
>>>       -
>>>
>>>    *Proto-Iranian*:
>>>    -
>>>
>>>       Reconstructed as *jigar* or *jakar*, derived from an earlier
>>>       Indo-Iranian form.
>>>       -
>>>
>>>    *Proto-Indo-Iranian*:
>>>    -
>>>
>>>       Reconstructed as *yákṛt* (same as Sanskrit *yakṛt* = liver)
>>>       -
>>>
>>>    *Proto-Indo-European (PIE)* root:
>>>    -
>>>
>>>       **iék̂wṛ̥* → This is the PIE word for *“liver”*, and it gives
>>>       rise to many cognates across Indo-European languages.
>>>
>>> ------------------------------
>>> 🔹 4. *Cognates in other Indo-European languages*
>>> Language Word for "liver" Notes
>>> *Sanskrit* *yakṛt* (यकृत्) Exact Indo-Aryan match
>>> *Avestan* *yakarə* East Iranian cognate
>>> *Latin* *iecur* PIE root preserved (with changes)
>>> *Ancient Greek* *hēpar* (ἧπαρ) Different root, not cognate (likely
>>> non-IE origin)
>>> *Old English* *lifere* → *liver* Possibly unrelated, or influenced by
>>> metaphorical use ("life-organ")
>>> ------------------------------
>>> 🔹 5. *Semantic development in Persian*
>>>
>>>    -
>>>
>>>    In Persian and later Urdu and Hindi, *jigar* became *highly
>>>    metaphorical*:
>>>    -
>>>
>>>       *jigar-dil* = “liver-hearted” → brave
>>>       -
>>>
>>>       *jigar-pāra* (lit. “a piece of liver”) = a beloved person
>>>       -
>>>
>>>       *jigar khun hona* (“liver bleeding”) = intense grief
>>>
>>> This is *cultural* — just as the *heart* became the seat of emotion in
>>> European traditions, *the liver* was seen in Persianate culture as the
>>> seat of *strong emotions*, especially *courage and deep love*.
>>> ------------------------------
>>> ✅ Summary:
>>>
>>>    -
>>>
>>>    *Jigar (جگر)* is *an authentic Iranian word*, descending from *Proto-Indo-European
>>>    *iék̂wṛ̥* via *Indo-Iranian *yakṛt*.
>>>    -
>>>
>>>    It is *cognate with Sanskrit yakṛt*, Latin *iecur*, and Avestan
>>>    *yakarə*.
>>>    -
>>>
>>>    The *metaphorical richness* of the word in Persianate cultures
>>>    (courage, love, pain) is a *later cultural development*, not
>>>    etymological.
>>>
>>> Would you like a linguistic family tree of this word across
>>> Indo-European languages?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am 08.08.2025 um 16:59 schrieb Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY:
>>>
>>> https://claude.ai/share/2fe502db-185f-447d-b742-88e87ff1c17c
>>>
>>> Some interesting connections of the Persian word jigar to Sanskrit word
>>> taker for liver.
>>>
>>> Madhav Deshpande
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infohttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
>>>
>>> --
>>> Dr. R. H. Koch - Germany/Sri Lanka www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com
>>>
>>>
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