[INDOLOGY] Whitney and doubling of "ch"

Fri Oct 20 18:56:22 UTC 2023

Phillip Maas pointed me to W. Sidney Allen's Sandhi (on archive.org
https://archive.org/details/allensandhi2ndedition1972/page/n43/mode/2up )
He discusses the historical basis for doubling of ch, and what he says
agrees with what has been said on this thread.

Attached are the two relevant pages on vowel+ch .

Harry Spier

On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 11:12 AM Christophe Vielle via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> I am not a grammarian but I must confess that I do not understand the
> following passage in this interesting article, which appears to have
> forgotten that the rules of external sandhi (generally) apply to words
> forming compounds, and that the sandhi between words forming compounds
> cannot be rightly called "internal sandhi". I quote:
>
> Pāṇinian grammar records compulsory gemination of ch when preceded by (i)
> a short vowel in both internal and external sandhis (Aṣṭādhyāyī́ 6.1.73:
> ché ca) as in svacchāyā and tena cchinnam, (ii) the particles ā and mā in
> both internal and external sandhis (Aṣṭādhyāyī́ 6.1.74: āṅmā́ṅoś ca) as in
>  ā cchāyā and mā cchaitsīt (iii) a long vowel in internal sandhi
> (Aṣṭādhyāyī́ 6.1.75: dīrghā́t) as in vicācchāyate. Optional gemination of
> ch is prescribed only when preceded by a long vowel in an internal sandhi
> (Aṣṭādhyāyī́ 6.1.76: padā́ntād vā) as in mālā chinnā or mālā cchinnā. There
> are not many words in Sanskrit which begin with ch and therefore, as the
> rules of grammar suggest, a non-conjunct ch is fairly rare.
>
> In (i) the example of "internal sandhi" should have been e.g. gacchati or
> icchati
> (ii) with ā and mā it concerns "external sandhi" only, even if the prefix ā
> is used in composition
> (iii) ok in this case, the Kāśikāvṛttī gives the list of verbal forms: hrīcchati,
> mlecchati, apacācchāyate, vicācchāyate (the last two ones made with apa-
> and vi- on *cho* 4 P. (*chyati, acchāt-acchāsīt*, *caus.* *chāyayati*) - McD
> gives here the subst. mleccha-
> (iv) should be corrected into "in an external sandhi", ex. sā chinatti or
> cchinatti, badarī(c)chāyā (Renou §8)
>
>
> Le 20 oct. 2023 à 15:34, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> a écrit :
>
> This paper may be of interest in the context of scribal practice:
>
>    - Chakraborty, Deepro, Jason Eric Birch, Dominik Wujastyk, Andrey
>    Klebanov, Harshal Bhatt, Madhusudan Rimal, and Vandana Lele. 2021. “The
>    Graphemes Ch and Cch in the Nepalese Script.” Academia Letters, 1–7.
>    https://doi.org/10.20935/al3954.
>
>
>
> On Fri, 20 Oct 2023 at 03:45, Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>> This discussion of paurushetva and apaurusheyatva of the Vedas is not
>> related to , so a digression from the present relevant topic of primacy of
>> orality while deciding the 'spelling' of certain
>> phonetic/phomemic sequences.
>>
>> Prof. Hock, Hans Henrich brought up the pertinent point of primacy of
>> orality while deciding the 'spelling'  and Sri Harry Spier too rightly is
>> focusing his attention on that aspect and trying to know the history /
>> chronology of the shift from orality alone situation to literate
>> (oral-literate dual ? ) situation..
>>
>> गीती शीघ्री शिरःकम्पी तथा *लिखितपाठकः *।
>> अनर्थज्ञोऽल्पकण्ठश्च षडेते पाठकाधमाः ।। ३२ ।।
>>
>> is from पाणिनीयशिक्षा/सप्तमखण्डः available here
>> <https://sa.wikisource.org/wiki/%E0%A4%AA%E0%A4%BE%E0%A4%A3%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%A8%E0%A5%80%E0%A4%AF%E0%A4%B6%E0%A4%BF%E0%A4%95%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%B7%E0%A4%BE/%E0%A4%B8%E0%A4%AA%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A4%E0%A4%AE%E0%A4%96%E0%A4%A3%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%A1%E0%A4%83>
>> .
>>
>> So , that is the reason , the guru in Pune was apologetic in saying that
>> the sishyas were using the printed version only tentatively.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Oct 20, 2023 at 12:21 PM alakendu das via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Mr. Hart,
>>> Mahabharata's  'Shantiparva ( 210/19)  specifically mentions the *
>>> Apaurasheya "** nature of the *Vedas.
>>>
>>> " Hrrishaya MantraDrashtarO
>>>    Na tu Bedasya Kartaro"
>>>  Na Kaschid Veda Karta cha
>>>  VedaSmarta Chaturbhuja".
>>>
>>> SayanaAcharya's commentary on Vedas, too, reflects an identical view
>>>
>>> "*Josya niswashitam Veda jo VedabhyaAkhilam Jogot. "....*
>>>
>>> *I apologise for my inability to type in Sanskrit.*
>>>
>>> *Any further elucidation/ correction  on the above would be highly
>>> beneficial.*
>>>
>>> *Regards*
>>> *Alakendu Das*
>>>
>>>
>>> From: indology at list.indology.info
>>> Sent: Fri, 20 Oct 2023 03:04:48
>>> To: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info>
>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Whitney and doubling of "ch"
>>>
>>>
>>> Well, perhaps not entirely apauruṣeya. See the RV:
>>>
>>> ए॒तं ते॒ स्तोमं॑ तुविजात॒ विप्रो॒ रथं॒ न धीरः॒ स्वपा॑ अतक्षम् ।
>>> यदीद॑ग्ने॒ प्रति॒ त्वं दे॑व॒ हर्याः॒ स्व॑र्वतीर॒प ए॑ना जयेम ॥ ५.००२.११
>>>
>>> On Oct 19, 2023, at 12:13 PM, alakendu das via INDOLOGY <
>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> Mr. Spier,
>>>
>>> What we have learnt from Indological studies, Vedas were never written.
>>> We call it "Apaurasheya"... i. e. not written.
>>> The Vedic Mantras came as revealations to the seers( we call them
>>> 'Drashta" i. e. one who sees) while in Meditation.
>>> The hymns or mantras were then recited orally and passed on across
>>> generations of disciples. who memorised them.
>>> Finally, sage Vyasa arranged a compilation and  divided them among his 4
>>> disciples namely, Poilo, Boishampayan, Jaimini and Sumanta.
>>> Thus we got the 4 Vedas
>>>
>>> In the 19th Century, Max Mueller edited the
>>> Vedas.
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> Alakendu  Das.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: indology at list.indology.info
>>> Sent: Thu, 19 Oct 2023 19:40:15
>>> To: "Hock, Hans Henrich" <hhhock at illinois.edu>
>>> Cc: McComas Taylor via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
>>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Whitney and doubling of "ch"
>>>
>>>
>>> Hans Heinrich Hock wrote:
>>>
>>>> Whatever the motivation may be for the spelling with a single <ch> in
>>>> the Rig Veda (and let’s keep in mind that the “real” Rig Veda is oral),
>>>>
>>> 1) Can someone point me to some article on when and why the Rg-veda was
>>> first written down . what script etc.  Was it a British initiative or was
>>> the whole or parts written down before the colonial period?  I've seen in a
>>> modern Taittiriya Vedashala the students practicing some of their mantras
>>> using  written material.  Did the medieval and later Vedashalas also use
>>> written materials to teach their students?
>>>
>>> 2) Is it possible that this  "Rg-veda written spelling gachati etc." is
>>> just a reflection of what was written when the Rg-veda was first written
>>> down?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Harry Spier
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>>
>> Senior Director, IndicA
>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>> BoS Kavikulaguru Kalidasa Sanskrit University, Ramtek, Maharashtra
>> BoS Veda Vijnana Gurukula, Bengaluru.
>> Member, Advisory Council, Veda Vijnana Shodha Samsthanam, Bengaluru
>> BoS Rashtram School of Public Leadership
>> Editor-in-Chief, International Journal of Studies in Public Leadership
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies,
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>
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>
> –––––––––––––––––––
> Christophe Vielle <https://uclouvain.be/en/directories/christophe.vielle>
> Louvain-la-Neuve
>
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