[INDOLOGY] iti in Sanskrit
rajam
rajam at earthlink.net
Mon Nov 14 04:15:02 UTC 2022
I’m sorry, in my last posting the link was incorrect. The correct link to the composition is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9a7pS3yqwI <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9a7pS3yqwI>
Right now, I’m listening to the song. Please listen to the song at the 8:48 time-scale of the video. You’ll here “iti vathathi” …
Thanks and regards,
rajam
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: rajam via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] iti in Sanskrit
> Date: November 13, 2022 at 1:30:40 PM PST
> To: Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu>
> Cc: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info>
> Reply-To: rajam <rajam at earthlink.net>
>
> Right on Target!!!
>
> I was going to say a few words about the direct equivalence between the Sanskrit “iti” and Tamil “eṉ”.
>
> 1. In Sangam Literature, the “eṉ” is very productive; manifests in all possible forms of a language.
>
> 2. In subsequent texts, such as the 'Twin Epics — cilappatikāram and maṇimēkalai’ as many have noted them, every chapter (long verse/canto) ends with the word “eṉ.”
>
> 3. In Classical Carnatic Music, there’s a beautiful composition by Thulasidaas (Gopala Gokula) in which we hear at the end of the verse, “iti vathathi …” . If you’re interested, please hear : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzyndQ91-Ho <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzyndQ91-Ho>
>
> ++++++++++
>
> So, I take “iti” or “eṉ” as a 'wrapper morpheme’ or a ‘summarizer’ of what has been said thus far.
>
> Thanks and regards,
> —rajam
>
>
>> On Nov 13, 2022, at 12:41 PM, Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>
>> Friends,
>>
>> I have not read all the useful references you have mentioned, so forgive me if I am bringing coals to Newcastle. But I recall that in Pāli and BHS texts ´ti is ubiquitous at the end of verses. Might not the MIA angle be worth exploring ? (And please forgive my ignorance if there is well-known work that does this already. )
>>
>> Matthew Kapstein
>> EPHE, Paris
>>
>> Sent from Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
>> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of George L. HART via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
>> Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2022 8:12:25 PM
>> To: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] iti in Sanskrit
>>
>> V.S. Rajam’s book is an essential one for students of classical Tamil, covering syntax, meter, morphology, etc. What I meant is that to my knowledge no one has made a substantial study of every use of eṉ in Sangam literature. Such a study might include uses of iti in early Sanskrit. For example, in modern Tamil we often find ēṉ eṉṟāl, “If you ask why,” which corresponds exactly to Sanskrit "kuta iti cet.” One wonders how old this usage is in both languages. George Hart
>>
>>> On Nov 12, 2022, at 6:07 PM, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net <mailto:rajam at earthlink.net>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear List Members,
>>>
>>> George Hart said:
>>>
>>> /// I am sure many have noted that in Tamil, the word eṉ, which has equivalents in other Dravidian languages (an in Telugu, for example), is far more productive than Sanskrit iti. It occurs in various forms — adjective (eṉṉum), adverb (eṉṟu), noun (eṉpatu), finite verb (e.g. eṉkiṟārkaḷ), while in Sanskrit iti is only adverbial. It would be interesting to analyze the uses of eṉ in Sangam literature — I’m not sure anyone has done this. ///
>>>
>>> Just to kindle your memory …
>>>
>>> Please look into my book “A Reference Grammar of Classical Tamil Poetry, V.S. Rajam, American Philosophical Society, 1992”
>>>
>>> Thanks and regards,
>>> V.S. Rajam
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Nov 12, 2022, at 12:54 PM, George L. HART via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I am sure many have noted that in Tamil, the word eṉ, which has equivalents in other Dravidian languages (an in Telugu, for example), is far more productive than Sanskrit iti. It occurs in various forms — adjective (eṉṉum), adverb (eṉṟu), noun (eṉpatu), finite verb (e.g. eṉkiṟārkaḷ), while in Sanskrit iti is only adverbial. It would be interesting to analyze the uses of eṉ in Sangam literature — I’m not sure anyone has done this. Of course, the use of this construction could be an areal phenomenon — it is not necessarily true that its presence in early Sanskrit is due to Dravidian, though I think it is highly likely, given its richness in Dravidian languages. George Hart
>>>>
>>>>> On Nov 12, 2022, at 1:08 PM, Tieken, H.J.H. (Herman) via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I do not know if the question was about iti as an areal phenomenon. If so, see F.B.J. Kuiper, "The Genesis of a Linguistic Area", IIJ 1968, where, if I remember well, he compares Skt iti with Tamil eṉṟu.
>>>>> Herman
>>>>>
>>>>> Herman Tieken
>>>>> Stationsweg 58
>>>>> 2515 BP Den Haag
>>>>> The Netherlands
>>>>> 00 31 (0)70 2208127
>>>>> website: hermantieken.com <http://hermantieken.com/>
>>>>> Van: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info <mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> namens Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
>>>>> Verzonden: zaterdag 12 november 2022 17:34
>>>>> Aan: Olivelle, Joseph P <jpo at austin.utexas.edu <mailto:jpo at austin.utexas.edu>>
>>>>> CC: indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info> <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
>>>>> Onderwerp: Re: [INDOLOGY] iti in Sanskrit
>>>>>
>>>>> If I remember correctly, the possibility of the "iti" constructions being an areal phenomena have been discussed for many decades. The best person to provide information regarding this topic may be Hans Hock. I will see if I can locate any of these older publications.
>>>>>
>>>>> Madhav M. Deshpande
>>>>> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
>>>>> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
>>>>> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>>>>> Adjunct Professor, National Institute of Advanced Studies, Bangalore, India
>>>>>
>>>>> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sat, Nov 12, 2022 at 6:28 AM Olivelle, Joseph P via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>>>> See the many explanations of ‘iti’ in Gary Tubb and Emery Boose’s book “Scholastic Sanskrit”.
>>>>>
>>>>> Patrick
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> > On Nov 12, 2022, at 8:10 AM, Brendan S. Gillon, Prof. via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info <mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Dear colleagues,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > I am wondering if any of you know of articles on the use of `iti' in
>>>>> > Sanskrit.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Best wishes,
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Brendan
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Brendan S. Gillon email: brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca <mailto:brendan.gillon at mcgill.ca>
>>>>> > Department of Linguistics
>>>>> > McGill University tel.: 001 514 398 4868
>>>>> > 1085, Avenue Docteur-Penfield
>>>>> > Montreal, Quebec fax.: 001 514 398 7088
>>>>> > H3A 1A7 CANADA
>>>>> >
>>>>> > webpage: https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwebpages.mcgill.ca%2Fstaff%2Fgroup3%2Fbgillo%2Fweb%2F&data=05%7C01%7C%7C40005a48e3d64c7af97308dac4b84054%7C31d7e2a5bdd8414e9e97bea998ebdfe1%7C0%7C0%7C638038592882519039%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=SHfWYYtZKaf%2FjbNNUQwJhnoaLp8V7WAqPSZGcXaH2xU%3D&reserved=0 <https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwebpages.mcgill.ca%2Fstaff%2Fgroup3%2Fbgillo%2Fweb%2F&data=05%7C01%7Ch.j.h.tieken%40hum.leidenuniv.nl%7C295db7e7b8714862742908dac4cbed9c%7Cca2a7f76dbd74ec091086b3d524fb7c8%7C0%7C0%7C638038677398630127%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=yyUoPrr6Ns2Gi1p2wTJO5kICrdegnoY5Ox6uJigVykk%3D&reserved=0>
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
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>>>>>
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