[INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta

Thu May 13 13:43:22 UTC 2021

read, of course, AA 4.3.110 pārāśarya-śilālibhyāṁ bhikṣu-naṭa-sūtrayoḥ

On Thu, 13 May 2021 at 15:35, Jan E.M. Houben <jemhouben at gmail.com> wrote:

> Dear Professor Schlingloff,
> Thanks for reminding us of this important textual research, which has
> significant implications for our lexical understanding of the term sutta.
> Your conclusion would be in harmony with the indications found in Pāṇini’s
> Aṣṭādhyāyī,
> AA 4.3.110 pārāśarya-śilālibhyāṁ bhikṣusūtrayoḥ and 110 karmanda-krśāśvād
> iniḥ
> according to which two groups of ascetics (mendicants) receive a name
> according to the Brahminical ascetic school to which they belong.
> In the Sanskritic-Prakritic, widely understandable diglossic vocabulary of
> the time, still preceding the origination of classical Sanskrit with
> several centuries,
> the term sūtra/sutta was apparently used with regard to (sometimes
> currently lost) texts for teaching, which were within their school a
> Leitfaden, thread or guide
> in relation to some larger body of discussions or texts, such as, also,
> the Brāhmaṇas and Āraṇyakas in case of the Śrautasūtras.
> This can never exclude (the development of) other contemporaneous
> interpretations and understandings of the term sutta : yogād rūḍhir
> balīyasī...
> With best regards,
> Jan Houben
>
> On Thu, 13 May 2021 at 10:53, Dieter Schlingloff <dieter at schlingloff.de>
> wrote:
>
>> Dear all,
>> in an article in ZDMG 113, 1964, *Zur Interpretation des Pratimoksasutra*,
>> p.536-51 , I have given proofs for the thesis, that the Buddhist Pratimoksa
>> *sutra* (in its oldest form) is the earliest  Buddhist text at all. This
>> text is a real *thread*, a guide to korrekt behaviour for Buddhist
>> monks. From this guide book, the term was taken over to the following texts
>> concerned with teaching, the Buddhist suttas.
>> Best greetings, Dieter Schlingloff.
>> Am 12.05.2021 um 14:36 schrieb Andrew Ollett via INDOLOGY:
>>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I am reminded by Professor Paul Dundas of a few other points that might
>> be relevant to this discussion:
>>
>>    - Paul Dundas (“Somnolent Sūtras: Scriptural Commentary in Śvetāmbara
>>    Jainism," *Journal of Indian Philosophy* 24: 73–101, 1996) says the
>>    following (p. 78: see the notes for the sources):
>>       - The Jain position with regard to scripture and commentary upon
>>       it, of whatever type or period, is strongly predicated upon the
>>       acceptance of meaning as being superior to word.  This can be seen clearly
>>       from the standard Jain etymology for the term “sūtra” which would derive it
>>       from the root sūc, “indicate.” A sūtra “indicates” many meanings which the
>>       teacher explicates through commentary, obtaining the sense from the root
>>       text in the same manner as a potter creates shapes from a lump of clay.
>>       - Mari Jvyärsjärvi (“Retrieving the Hidden Meaning: Jain
>>    Commentarial Techniques and the Art of Memory,” *Journal of Indian
>>    Philosophy *38.2: 133–162, 2010), cites Saṅghadāsa’s commentary on
>>    the *Br̥hatkalpa *(p. 138):
>>       - Sutra [becomes sutta] just like supta; or sūtra has a double
>>       meaning [ 'sūtra is a thread']. Or it becomes sutta because it indicates
>>       [sūcana] the meaning, or is well-spoken [sūkta]. These are its etymologies:
>>       it 'indicates' or it 'sews,' or also 'it is produced,' or 'it follows.'
>>       These are the divisions [of etymology], and these are its names. Sūtra is
>>       like a person who is slumbering: unless it is "awakened" by meaning,
>>       it cannot be known. Or due to the similarity in [words that have]
>>       double meanings, many meanings are joined together. A needle, even when
>>       broken, can be traced by the thread as long as it is threaded. Likewise
>>       meaning [is pointed out] by the sūtra. It 'sews together' words and
>>       meanings like a thread [sews together] jackets and so on.13
>>       - The name of one of the older texts in the Śvētāmbara canon,
>>    Sūyagaḍa-, is often rendered as Sūtrakr̥ta-, but the first part doesn't
>>    correspond to the usual development of the Old Indic word sūtra-. Willem
>>    Bollée suggested that it might come from *sūca-kr̥ta- or *sūca-gata- (in
>>    his glossary to *Studien zum Sūyagaḍa*, vol. 1, p. 197). Compare the
>>    Sanskrit word *sūcā*.
>>
>> Andrew
>>
>> On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 1:45 PM Andrew Ollett <andrew.ollett at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Since Rupert asked about the "wider Prakrit evidence," I can just cite
>>> the following verse that is included in the "late canonical" Anuyōgadvāra
>>> of the Śvētāmbara Jains (p. 91 of vol. 1 of Jambūvijayajī's edition):
>>>
>>> Sūtram (giving a list of synonyms for suya, i.e., śruta, learning):
>>>     suya-sutta-gantha-siddhanta-sāsaṇē āṇa-vayaṇa-uvadēsē
>>>     paṇṇavaṇa-āgamē yā ēgaṭṭhā pajjavā-suttē
>>>
>>> Cūrṇiḥ of Jinadāsa: gurūhiṁ aṇakkhātaṁ jamhā ṇō bujjhati tamhā
>>> pāsuttasamaṁ suttaṁ (i.e. deriving *sutta*- from *supta-*)
>>> Vivr̥tiḥ of Haribhadra: sūcanāt sūtram.
>>> Vr̥tti of Hēmacandra: arthānāṁ sūcanāt sūtram.
>>>
>>> The idea of taking *suttam* from the verbal root √*sūc *is clever (via
>>> something like *sūk-tra-*), but of course √*sūc *is secondary from √*sū* (via
>>> the noun *sū-cī́-*), so maybe it doesn't work.
>>>
>>> Sanskrit of uktá- usually corresponds to vutta- in Middle Indic
>>> (including Ardhamagadhi), and although utta- is used too under the
>>> influence of Sanskrit at a later period.
>>>
>>> Andrew
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 1:15 PM Dan Lusthaus <lusthaus at g.harvard.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dominik,
>>>>
>>>> The Aṅguttara passage contrasting sutta with vinaya would appear to
>>>> pose sutta and vinaya as referring to two of what became three piṭakas
>>>> (abhidhamma had yet to appear).
>>>>
>>>> Bhikkhu Bodhi translates that passage (and the following one) this way.
>>>>
>>>> “Here, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu might say: ‘In the presence of the Blessed
>>>> One I heard this; in his presence I learned this: “This is the Dhamma; this
>>>> is the discipline; this is the Teacher’s teaching!”’ That bhikkhu’s
>>>> statement should neither be approved nor rejected. Without approving or
>>>> rejecting it, you should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then
>>>> check for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline.{893} If,
>>>> when you check for them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline,
>>>> [you find that] they are not included among the discourses and are not to
>>>> be seen in the discipline, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Surely, this is
>>>> not the word of the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened
>>>> One. It has been badly learned by this bhikkhu.’ Thus you should discard it.
>>>>
>>>> “But a bhikkhu might say: ‘In the presence of the Blessed One I heard
>>>> this; in his presence I learned this: “This is the Dhamma; this is the
>>>> discipline; this is the Teacher’s teaching!”’ That bhikkhu’s statement
>>>> should neither be approved nor rejected. Without approving or rejecting it,
>>>> you should thoroughly learn those words and phrases and then check for them
>>>> in the discourses and seek them in the discipline. If, when you check for
>>>> them in the discourses and seek them in the discipline, [you find that]
>>>> they are included among the discourses and are to be seen in the
>>>> discipline, you should draw the conclusion: ‘Surely, this is the word of
>>>> the Blessed One, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One. It has been
>>>> learned well by this bhikkhu.’ You should remember this first great
>>>> reference.
>>>>
>>>> Bhikkhu Bodhi’s note {893} is interesting:
>>>> Tāni padabyañjanāni . . . sutte otāretabbāni vinaye sandassetabbāni. Mp
>>>> gives various meanings of sutte and vinaye here, some improbable. Clearly,
>>>> this instruction presupposes that there already existed a body of
>>>> discourses and a systematic Vinaya that could be used to evaluate other
>>>> texts proposed for inclusion as authentic utterances of the Buddha.
>>>> Otāretabbāni is gerundive plural of otārenti, “make descend, put down or
>>>> put into,” and otaranti, just below, means “descend, come down, go into.”
>>>> My renderings, respectively, as “check for them” and “are included among”
>>>> are adapted to the context. Sandassetabbāni is gerundive plural of
>>>> sandassenti, “show, make seen,” and sandissanti means “are seen.”
>>>>
>>>> Like Woodward, Bodhi will on occasion indicate when he finds the
>>>> commentaries unhelpful or misleading.
>>>>
>>>> Dan
>>>>
>>>> On May 11, 2021, at 12:11 PM, Dominik Wujastyk via INDOLOGY <
>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Interesting that in some of those citations, Dan, sutta is in the
>>>> singular.  That suggests, to me, a genre rather than "texts".  (I'm not on
>>>> secure ground here;  my Pali grammar is a bit rusty.)
>>>>
>>>> On another topic, my teacher Richard Gombrich also taught me that sutta
>>>> could be *<sūkta .  But I'd like to note that he wasn't dogmatic about it.
>>>> It was represented as a possibility.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>> Dominik
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
>>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infohttps://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
>>
>
>
> --
>
> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>
> Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>
> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>
> École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)
>
> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>
> Groupe de recherches en études indiennes (EA 2120)
>
> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>
> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>
> *https://www.classicalindia.info* <https://www.classicalindia.info>
>
> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augmentée: construction,
> transmission
>
> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <https://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology/attachments/20210513/4223eaa9/attachment.htm>