[INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta

Tue May 11 14:26:56 UTC 2021

Thanks all for a very interesting discussion.

I was wondering Nathan, if you might say a bit more about your critique of
the sūkta hypothesis, or perhaps send me your article.
I kind of favor it myself, but I want to know your take as your book has
been so influential on my more
recent thinking of the web of LateVedic/Renouncer/Householder webs of
conceptual reinvention.

 The reason I was partial to the *sūkta *model, is I think Rigvedic *sūkta*s
(from the perspective of the anthologizers of the text and maintainers of
the
*anukramaṇī*s) are conceptually animate. That is the reperformed speech act
of a figure of memory, who could be a legendary human, god, or even a
river.
Figures like Atri and the "Atris" that followed him. Whatever their
vision-experience was (*dhī*) it was wrought into the form of a poem,
frozen in verbal amber, and thus the oral tradition is preserving not just
the words of legendary figures but their perspective, breath, mind, etc.
(the components of the self in the later Vedic tradition that frequently
enter and exit the figure of Prajāpati). In the Rigveda itself, we see *satyam
uktam, *but I don't think it's until the Khilāni that we get *sūktam
vacas *with
the explicit noun the adjective modifies before its history of
adjective substantivization takes its course. It is not just "well" said, I
think but "truly" said. The re-performance of something imagined to have
been an original first performance once upon a time. When Atri found the
Sun, or when Vasiṣṭha aided Sudās, when Indra turned the Maruts into his
entourage, when Viśvāmitra cajoled the rivers Vipāś and Śutudrī, etc. In
other words a kind if impersonation and re-enactment is, I will argue in my
book *the Invisible Mask *baked into much of the Rigvedic sūktas (of the
inner maṇḍalas at least) as an exponent of a particular kind of textuality.
In an oral tradition you will never encounter a "dead text" like a book
that merely contains information, you will encounter a person, a father,
whose voice is laden with the voices of an unbroken succession of fathers,
going back to a legendary forerunner. An animate voice, an active
intelligence, who embodies generations of poetic intelligences going back
to an imagined First (most of my thoughts on all of this are in my book ms *The
Invisible Mask*).

Compare this to the earliest text we think of as a sūtra, the
*Baudhāyanaśrautasūtra,
*is not like this at all. They are stage directions that only refer to the
actor's script when necessary. Personal identity is extremely understated,
the assumed subject of the verb is often just whoever is the acting
*adhvaryu* or if not him then it's just the *yajamāna* but these are
offices not individuals. Their textuality, their performativity, is very
different than that of the *sūkta*.

So, I suppose it's worth asking: which of the two is the *buddhavacanam* more
like? Is reciting the *buddhavacanam* a kind of impersonation? Speak like
the Buddha to be more like the Buddha? Does it have this kind of
re-enactive/impersonation component in the way I think the mantra-period
*yajña* did? Or are they more like stage directions? Or perhaps they are
nothing like either of these and wholly dissimilar to Vedic textualities.
Not knowing the Buddhist materials nearly as well as the other contributors
to this thread, I am extremely curious about your thoughts on this.

Best,
Caley

On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 9:52 AM Uskokov, Aleksandar via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Interestingly Śaṅkara gives a similar illustration in his BSBh
> 1.1.2: vedānta-vākya-kusuma-grathanārthatvāt sūtrāṇām; vedānta-vākyāni hi
> sūtrair udāhṛtya vicāryante; "The sūtras ae for knitting the flowers that
> are the Upaniṣadic passages; for, the Upaniṣadic passages themselves are
> examined through the sūtras."
>
> One benefit of reading *sutta* as *sūkta* is that it is no longer
> mysterious why Brahmanical sūtras are so economical and Buddhist having so
> much repetition. Later Brahmanical definitions all associate *sūtra* with
> being short and having few worlds and syllables.
>
> Best wishes
> Aleksandar
>
> Aleksandar Uskokov
>
> Lector in Sanskrit
>
> South Asian Studies Council, Yale University
>
> 203-432-1972 | aleksandar.uskokov at yale.edu
> ------------------------------
> *From:* INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> Lubin, Tim <LubinT at wlu.edu>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, May 11, 2021 9:22 AM
> *To:* Rupert Gethin <Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>;
> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta
>
>
> But this is not really much to support *sutta* < *sūkta*, since the
> regular Pāli form parallel to *sūkta* includes the glide -v-, as Skt
> *ukta* ~ Pāli *vutta* and similarly in other MIA languages, which all
> seem to preserve the initial v- of the verbal root **vac*- (Pischel
> §337), despite the vowel change a > u before a labial (§104).
>
>
> And anyway, Buddhaghosa here is offering multiple exegetical “etymologies”
> (an old technique beginning already in the Vedic *brāhmaṇa-*prose), which
> are alternative or mutually complementary.  The last of the six offered
> here relies on the “thread” meaning, explained using *two* distinct
> analogies which, if anything  about the author’s sense of the basic literal
> meaning of the term is to be inferred from that fact, would point rather to
> a stronger awareness of *sutta* as connected with threads:
>
>
>
> *… suttasabhāgañ c’etaṃ yathā hi tacchakānaṃ suttaṃ pamāṇaṃ hoti evaṃ etam
> pi viññūnaṃ, yathā ca suttena saṅgahītāni pupphāni na vikirīyanti na
> viddhaṃsiyanti evam etena saṅgahītā atthā.*
>
>
>
> The trans. of the whole passage:
>
>
>
> This Scripture shows, expresses, fructifies,
>
> Yields, guards the Good, and is unto the wise
>
> A plumb-line; therefore *Sutta* is its name.
>
>
>
> For it shows what is good for the good of self and others.
>
> It is well expressed to suit the wishes of the audience. It has
>
> been said that it fructifies the Good, as crops fructify their
>
> fruit; that it yields the Good as a cow yields milk; and that
>
> it well protects and guards the Good. *It is a measure to the*
>
> *wise as the plumb-line is to carpenters*. And *just as flowers*
>
> *strung together are not scattered nor destroyed, so the Good*
>
> *strung together by it does not peris*h. Hence it has been said,
>
> to facilitate the study of the word-definition:
>
>
>
> This Scripture shows, expresses, fructifies,
>
> Yields, guards the Good, and is unto the wise
>
> A plumb-line; therefore *Sutta* is its name.
>
> (tr. Maung Tin, *The Expositor*, v. 1, PTE (1920), p. 24
>
>
>
> Best,
> Tim
>
>
>
> _________________________________________
> Timothy Lubin
> Jessie Ball duPont Professor of Religion and Adjunct Professor of Law
> 204 Tucker Hall
> Washington and Lee University
> Lexington, Virginia 24450
>
> American Council of Learned Societies fellow, 2020–21
> National Endowment for the Humanities fellow, 2020–21
>
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>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Reply-To: *Rupert Gethin <Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>
> *Date: *Monday, May 10, 2021 at 7:29 PM
> *To: *INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Subject: *Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta
>
>
>
> Oskar von Hinüber suggests here that the Theravāda tradition offers no
> support for a derivation of *sutta* from *sūkta*. (In
> der Theravāda-Überlieferung findet die Annahme, daß *sutta*- eigentlich
> *sūkta*- entspräche, nirgends eine Stütze, wie die
> lange Erörterung  zu sutta-, As 19, 15–26 mit aller Deutlichkeit zeigt.)
>
>
>
> However, the Atthasālini passage cited here (= Sp I 19 = Sv I 17) quotes
> and explains a mnemonic verse that offers 6 ways of taking *sutta;* the
> second of these is precisely *sūkta* (Pali *suvutta*):
>
>
>
> "As revealing benefits, as well spoken (*suvutta*), as productive,
> as yielding,
>
> as sheltering well, as a universal measuring cord, it is called *sutta*.”
>
>
> "For a *sutta* reveals various benefits for ourselves and others. And in
> it these benefits are spoken well (*suvutta*) since they are spoken
> in accordance with the disposition of those who are to be trained …"
>
>
>
> atthānaṃ sūcanato suvuttato savanato ’tha sūdanato |
> suttāṇā suttasabhāgato ca suttan ti akkhātaṃ ||
>
>
>
> taṃ hi attatthaparatthādibhede atthe sūceti. suvuttā c’ ettha
> atthā veneyyajjhāsayānulomena vuttattā ...
>
>
>
> Rupert Gethin
>
> --
>
> *Rupert Gethin*
>
> Professor of Buddhist Studies
> University of Bristol
>
> Department of Religion and Theology
>
> 3 Woodland Road ● Bristol BS8 1TB ● UK
>
>
>
> Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk <Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>
>
>
>
> On 10 May 2021, at 21:13, Lubin, Tim <LubinT at wlu.edu> wrote:
>
>
>
> Oskar von Hinüber (1994: “Die Neun Aṅgas,” p. 132) approvingly cites
> Mayrhofer’s judgment (EWA III/ 492) that the derivation from *sūkta* is
> “entbehrlich”; he cites a long discussion of the term in Buddhaghosa’s
> *Atthasālinī* 19.15–26 as evidence against it.
>
>
>
> Tim Lubin
>
>
>
>
>
> *From: *INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> INDOLOGY <INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> *Reply-To: *Andrew Ollett <andrew.ollett at gmail.com>
> *Date: *Monday, May 10, 2021 at 3:28 PM
> *To: *Jim Ryan <jim_ryan at comcast.net>
> *Cc: *INDOLOGY <INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> *Subject: *Re: [INDOLOGY] The Buddhist term sutta
>
>
>
> Dear Jim,
>
>
>
> See Max Walleser's 1914 book, footnote on p. 4:
>
>
>
> https://archive.org/details/dli.granth.87981/page/4/mode/2up
> <https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Farchive.org%2Fdetails%2Fdli.granth.87981%2Fpage%2F4%2Fmode%2F2up&data=04%7C01%7Caleksandar.uskokov%40yale.edu%7C988aad0e5b1b4a42373e08d9147ff166%7Cdd8cbebb21394df8b4114e3e87abeb5c%7C0%7C0%7C637563362017297191%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&sdata=A1pgPgLqB0ZEzM7W0xTHl2FiPSACu1hYQIAwDphCObg%3D&reserved=0>
>
>
>
> K. R. Norman and Gombrich accepted this suggestion. I suppose Pollock got
> it from Gombrich.
>
>
>
> Andrew
>
>
>
> On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 2:22 PM Jim Ryan via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> Dear all,
>
>
>
> Sheldon Pollock in *The Language of the Gods in the World of Men *(p. 52)
> suggests that the Buddhist term “sutta” does not derive from the Sanskrit
> *sūtra,* but rather from *sūkta. *Sanskrit double consonant clusters do
> show regular assimilation, regressively and progressively, in Prakrit,
> where two different consonants become a double of one of them. I’m
> interested in hearing learned opinion on Pollock’s suggestion. I had not
> noticed this interesting detail, when I first read this book some years ago.
>
>
>
> James Ryan
>
> Asian Philosophies and Cultures (Emeritus)
>
> California Institute of Integral Studies
>
>
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