[INDOLOGY] Comparison of Brahmins (and their cultural context) with Nazis (and their cultural context)? both inappropriate and inapt

Mon May 10 16:30:58 UTC 2021

Dear colleagues,
Thanks a lot for inspiring discussion!

Please let me know if anyone is interested in the "searchable" pdf of
Heesterman’s Royal Consecration 1957.

With great respect and best wishes
Cordially Yours
Natalia Korneeva

пн, 10 мая 2021 г. в 18:55, Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl>:

> Among other formats  *pdf + text* --- fully searchable.
>
> Artur
>
>
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>
> pon., 10 maj 2021 o 17:46 Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> napisał(a):
>
>> Dear Colieagues,
>>
>> Re Heesterman's rajasuya text. Here's what I was able to find:
>>
>>
>> https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.142124/2015.142124.The-Ancient-Indian-Royal-Consecration_djvu.txt
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Artur
>>
>>
>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Wolny
>> od wirusów. www.avast.com
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>>
>> pon., 10 maj 2021 o 16:26 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> napisał(a):
>>
>>> Dear Joanna and Jan (and other interested parties),
>>>
>>> I have a pdf of Heesterman 1957, but it is just an image scan not
>>> "searchable" unfortunately.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>> Caley
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 3:58 AM Jan E.M. Houben <jemhouben at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear Joanna,
>>>> I have Heesterman's 1957 book on the Rajasuya but I don't have a scan
>>>> or pdf...
>>>> No result on archive.org either.
>>>> Needless to say I would be really grateful in case anyone does have
>>>> such a scan and can share it...
>>>> Best regards,
>>>> Jan
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, 10 May 2021 at 00:24, Joanna Jurewicz <j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thank you, Caley, for your inspiring remarks.
>>>>>
>>>>>  Am I right that a Vaiśya is one among those who sprinkled water over
>>>>> a king during the Rajasuya? This could be a hint that the merchants were
>>>>> also to some extent included into creation of royal power. My copy of
>>>>> Heesterman's analysis of this ritual is somewhere lost among the papers...
>>>>>
>>>>> best wishes,
>>>>>
>>>>> Joanna
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>>
>>>>> Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz
>>>>>
>>>>> Katedra Azji Południowej /Chair of South Asia Studies
>>>>>
>>>>> Wydział Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
>>>>>
>>>>> Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
>>>>>
>>>>> ul. Krakowskie Przedmieście 26/28
>>>>>
>>>>> 00-927 Warszawa , Poland
>>>>>
>>>>> Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages
>>>>>
>>>>> College of Human Sciences
>>>>>
>>>>> UNISA
>>>>>
>>>>> Pretoria, RSA
>>>>>
>>>>> Member of Academia Europaea
>>>>>
>>>>> https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 21:06 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY <
>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> napisał(a):
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Artur,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you for your interest, but my latest research on the way Vedic
>>>>>> texts conceptualize and reflect ideas like society, lineage, family, etc.
>>>>>> and their conceptual history in the post-Vedic period...is not published
>>>>>> yet and I'm still trying to think through it (some of my thoughts on this
>>>>>> are in "The Invention of Vedic Authority" which will come out in Bloomsbury'*s
>>>>>> A Cultural History of Hinduism in Antiquity *ed by Jarrod Whitaker).
>>>>>> I will instead refer to other scholars' work which has influenced my
>>>>>> thinking about the *yajña *a great deal (too name just a few:
>>>>>> Proferes 2007 *Vedic Ideals of Sovereignty and the Poetics of Power,
>>>>>> *Ferrara 2016 "One Yajña, Many Rituals" and Ferrara 2016 "The
>>>>>> Function of the Yajña Between Practitioners and Clients", Jamison 2019
>>>>>> "Vedic Ritual: The Sacralization of the Mundane and the Domestication of
>>>>>> the Sacred" (in the same volume as Jan's "Ecology of Ritual Innovation in
>>>>>> Ancient India: Textual and Contextual Evidence.” ed. by Lauren Bausch)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Most of my published work focuses on theorizing Vedic
>>>>>> performativity/textuality (
>>>>>> https://www.academia.edu/39608974/Adhiyaj%C3%B1a_Towards_a_Performance_Grammar_of_the_Vedas
>>>>>> )
>>>>>> and then using this performative lens to read Vedic narrative through
>>>>>> that specific context
>>>>>> (
>>>>>> https://www.academia.edu/39278725/How_is_a_Vehicular_Homicide_Like_the_Sacrifice
>>>>>> )
>>>>>> (https://www.academia.edu/28122184/Exploring_impossible_authors_)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>> Caley
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 1:13 PM Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Caley,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thanks for your thoughts - good material for meditation. Would you,
>>>>>>> please, attach here the list of your publications?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Artur
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Wolny
>>>>>>> od wirusów. www.avast.com
>>>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>>>>>>> <#m_8406462056754523053_m_104675293968725488_m_-855663695347796132_m_3322488977977144814_m_3409913668191668636_m_4870047943634231980_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 18:12 Caley Smith <smith.caley at gmail.com>
>>>>>>> napisał(a):
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear Artur,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would say... I don't know? Most Vedic ritual activities depict
>>>>>>>> themselves as being ideally patronized by a materially-wealthy financiers
>>>>>>>> or hoping for that (and despising stingy ones). The ritual moment is a kind
>>>>>>>> of public moment when many clans are together and so the proto-śrauta
>>>>>>>> system, I see, as a kind of inter-clan negotiation one
>>>>>>>> which can produce a coalition, a detente to hostilities, as well as
>>>>>>>> consecration, marriage, funerary activities. So the focus is really on the
>>>>>>>> poetic-priestly tradition and these patrons as the audience. Not much
>>>>>>>> mention of cities, urban life, etc. but it's also not necessarily the case
>>>>>>>> that a clan that patronized Vedic ritual
>>>>>>>> could not be construed through the categories of "farmers,
>>>>>>>> craftsmen, merchants" in addition to what we expect (that is ranchers). I
>>>>>>>> would say the texts care little for this kind of vision of society, and
>>>>>>>> rather are focused on a society made of  generous and hospitable patrons
>>>>>>>> (as opposed to stingy ones), and those in our coalition (as opposed to
>>>>>>>> enemies/outsiders). But on urban life in the Vedas proper I have heard a
>>>>>>>> vast silence---and that makes sense because cities were not "on the ritual
>>>>>>>> ground" and nearly everything topical and of concern to the Vedas is
>>>>>>>> happening on the ritual ground or is embedded in an aetiological narrative
>>>>>>>> justifying something happening on the ritual ground. That does not mean
>>>>>>>> that they didn't know about cities, but in my published work I don't write
>>>>>>>> about urban life either because it is not the topic at hand (as I imagine
>>>>>>>> Buddhist dhāraṇīs, for instance, don't have much to say about urban
>>>>>>>> logistics either...). In which case, we wouldn't speak of "Vedic
>>>>>>>> civilization" either, we would speak of Vedic "ceremony-networks" from
>>>>>>>> which perhaps we can infer things about the historical political
>>>>>>>> organizations that employed them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On the other hand, by this description I am inherently assuming
>>>>>>>> Vedic tradition is something that has to do with the "Vedic period" and
>>>>>>>> "the Vedas," there are of course much later (pre/post Classical) texts that
>>>>>>>> would claim the mantle of the Vedic tradition that *may* have a good deal
>>>>>>>> to say about urban life, but if so I am ignorant of them currently and
>>>>>>>> would love to know more.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>> Caley
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 11:49 AM Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Tak.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> A few questions, perhaps simplistic, but nevertheless necessary.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Did something described as "Indian civilization" actually exist
>>>>>>>>> (Caley:  <I am not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic
>>>>>>>>> civilization" at that point.>).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> If so - then when, where, in what forms?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Did farmers, craftsmen, merchants fully participate in it?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Were the religious messages preserved in the Vedic texts
>>>>>>>>> accessible to them linguistically - and conceptually?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Were early urban organisms administered by reference to Vedic
>>>>>>>>> legal formulas, including, but not limited to, the cleaning up of urban
>>>>>>>>> spaces of refuse, of animal and human excrement? Including taxation?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I would like to know where in the Vedic tradition I could find
>>>>>>>>> these kinds of formulas. I see them in the Buddhist tradition, clearly -
>>>>>>>>> but in the Vedic tradition?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Artur
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Wolny
>>>>>>>>> od wirusów. www.avast.com
>>>>>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
>>>>>>>>> <#m_8406462056754523053_m_104675293968725488_m_-855663695347796132_m_3322488977977144814_m_3409913668191668636_m_4870047943634231980_m_4815751820438796764_m_5368552174539207762_m_8649802251600418683_m_-9035632625090394276_m_696913473187357508_m_4192862688876529753_DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 16:51 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY <
>>>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> napisał(a):
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dear Jan,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thank you for making this PDF available, I have a hard copy but
>>>>>>>>>> it's always useful to have a digital one too.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I too feel the comparison is fraught, please correct me if my
>>>>>>>>>> musings are completely wrong, but it seems to narrowly define Nazism as a
>>>>>>>>>> kind of anti-urban sentiment, and I don't think that is the case at all.
>>>>>>>>>> Rather, the Nazis who patronized the House of German Art were
>>>>>>>>>> *urban*! We know of many lyric poetic traditions (from the
>>>>>>>>>> Sangam to the troubadours of Provençe) who loved to represent the bucolic
>>>>>>>>>> scene in their verbal art yet that art was performed at a courtly non-rural
>>>>>>>>>> setting. So are all these "anti-urban" and thus some species of Nazism?
>>>>>>>>>> Hardly. There is a much more immediate reason why urban Nazis might have
>>>>>>>>>> preferred landscapes, namely they figured themselves to be natural inherent
>>>>>>>>>> landlords of the country (the Volk) and thus the sole owners/stakeholders
>>>>>>>>>> of the government. Everyone else is either an outsider or a service tenant
>>>>>>>>>> in this model, no? Urbanites viewing scenes of ruralia seems to me to be
>>>>>>>>>> more about constructing a vision of themselves as these landlords, like the
>>>>>>>>>> slave-owning plantation owners in the US that Hitler admired (and of course
>>>>>>>>>> a feature of classical liberalism is that only landed gentry can vote, that
>>>>>>>>>> is "own" the govt; "manifest destiny" easily becomes the quest for
>>>>>>>>>> Lebensraum). In other words, the museum becomes a way for urban Nazis to
>>>>>>>>>> conceive of their place in their domain.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And maybe this isn't the whole story, but it seems to be
>>>>>>>>>> radically different from the middle (even late) Vedic situation, which
>>>>>>>>>> derives directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in
>>>>>>>>>> which pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the
>>>>>>>>>> basis of food production. The elaborate inter-clan hospitality rituals of
>>>>>>>>>> the Vedas speaks more to an anxiety of the fragile nature of that existence
>>>>>>>>>> and the tenuous balance of power. Rather than anti-urban, I imagine that
>>>>>>>>>> urban centers were simply irrelevant to Vedic civilization at first, their
>>>>>>>>>> more immediate concerns were inter-clan politics on the ground. Now,
>>>>>>>>>> post-Alexander and post-Aśoka we may have a very different story but I am
>>>>>>>>>> not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that
>>>>>>>>>> point. And if we are talking about post-Alexander/post-Aśoka then we are
>>>>>>>>>> talking about a radically different community, arguably traumatized, and
>>>>>>>>>> newly reactionary. I think that's a very different and new set of aesthetic
>>>>>>>>>> commitments and social concerns guiding the proto-Dharma tradition than
>>>>>>>>>> that of the middle/late Vedic period proper.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is something in the comparison I have completely
>>>>>>>>>> misunderstood, and if so mea culpa, but otherwise I don't get it.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>> Caley
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:59 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <
>>>>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>>>>>> A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present
>>>>>>>>>>> taking place at Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing
>>>>>>>>>>> epidemic it is entirely online: the announcement (
>>>>>>>>>>> http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) is accessible on several
>>>>>>>>>>> lists.
>>>>>>>>>>> In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory
>>>>>>>>>>> at the beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive
>>>>>>>>>>> references to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and well-researched
>>>>>>>>>>> theory is found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture
>>>>>>>>>>> of early India* (Leiden 2007) --   Johannes Bronkhorst referred
>>>>>>>>>>> briefly to his comparison between Brahmins (and their cultural context) and
>>>>>>>>>>> the German Nazis (and their cultural context). On this specific reference
>>>>>>>>>>> by Johannes Bronkhorst during the symposium, I posed a question in the
>>>>>>>>>>> special section set up by the organizers of the conference: "Questions and
>>>>>>>>>>> answers will be conducted over a separate service, sli.do."
>>>>>>>>>>> Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did
>>>>>>>>>>> not pass the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online
>>>>>>>>>>> questions -- who wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no
>>>>>>>>>>> such comparison" -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora
>>>>>>>>>>> such as this Indology List.
>>>>>>>>>>> Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater
>>>>>>>>>>> Magadha* book of Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does
>>>>>>>>>>> not include the anonymous moderator of the Questions section of the
>>>>>>>>>>> symposium -- will have immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes
>>>>>>>>>>> Bronkhorst refers to pp. 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and
>>>>>>>>>>> similar passages elsewhere), where we read:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not
>>>>>>>>>>> like them.
>>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>>> It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the
>>>>>>>>>>> Third Reich.
>>>>>>>>>>> Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of
>>>>>>>>>>> German Art
>>>>>>>>>>> in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas
>>>>>>>>>>> depicted urban and
>>>>>>>>>>> industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)."
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since
>>>>>>>>>>> a very different analysis of the situation of the community of practicing
>>>>>>>>>>> Brahmins in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed by me
>>>>>>>>>>> in:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> “From Fuzzy-Edged ‘Family-Veda’ to the Canonical Śākhas of the
>>>>>>>>>>> Catur-Veda: Structures and Tangible Traces.” In: *Vedic Śākhās:
>>>>>>>>>>> Past, Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic
>>>>>>>>>>> Workshop, Bucharest* 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and
>>>>>>>>>>> M. Witzel, p. 159-192. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University, 2016.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> As the book is at present no more available but will soon again
>>>>>>>>>>> be available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily*
>>>>>>>>>>> accessible on my Academia.edu page.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The main principles followed in this study to explain the
>>>>>>>>>>> situation of the community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India are (1)
>>>>>>>>>>> "natural selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any current
>>>>>>>>>>> medium of transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus
>>>>>>>>>>> written texts, inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is added
>>>>>>>>>>> and at present the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in the
>>>>>>>>>>> context of an *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben 2019
>>>>>>>>>>> (see also: Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological
>>>>>>>>>>> History of India*, 1992 and Perennials edition 2013).
>>>>>>>>>>> N.B. Both Houben 2001:
>>>>>>>>>>> “’Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pramāṇa*s in
>>>>>>>>>>> the history of Sāṁkhya.” *Études de Lettres* 2001.3: *La
>>>>>>>>>>> rationalité en Asie / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J.
>>>>>>>>>>> Bronkhorst: 165-194.
>>>>>>>>>>> and Houben 2019:
>>>>>>>>>>> “Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and
>>>>>>>>>>> Contextual Evidence.” [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and
>>>>>>>>>>> ancient Iranian ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos:
>>>>>>>>>>> Vedic Thought, Ritual, and Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh
>>>>>>>>>>> Umakant Thite’s Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren
>>>>>>>>>>> M. Bausch, pp. 182-210 (References to this article integrated in id.,
>>>>>>>>>>> “Bibliography,” pp. 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books
>>>>>>>>>>> are now accessible on my Academia.edu page.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful
>>>>>>>>>>> discussions.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> All best, Jan Houben
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and
>>>>>>>>>>> Philology
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, Paris Sciences et
>>>>>>>>>>> Lettres)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Groupe de recherches en études indiennes (EA 2120)
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> *https://www.classicalindia.info*
>>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.classicalindia.info>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augmentée:
>>>>>>>>>>> construction, transmission
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
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>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>>>>
>>>> Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>>>>
>>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>>>>
>>>> École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)
>>>>
>>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>>>>
>>>> Groupe de recherches en études indiennes (EA 2120)
>>>>
>>>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>>>>
>>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>>>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>>>>
>>>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* <https://www.classicalindia.info>
>>>>
>>>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augmentée: construction,
>>>> transmission
>>>>
>>>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique
>>>>
>>>
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>>
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