[INDOLOGY] Comparison of Brahmins (and their cultural context) with Nazis (and their cultural context)? both inappropriate and inapt

Mon May 10 15:51:12 UTC 2021

Among other formats  *pdf + text* --- fully searchable.

Artur

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pon., 10 maj 2021 o 17:46 Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> napisał(a):

> Dear Colieagues,
>
> Re Heesterman's rajasuya text. Here's what I was able to find:
>
>
> https://archive.org/stream/in.ernet.dli.2015.142124/2015.142124.The-Ancient-Indian-Royal-Consecration_djvu.txt
>
> Best,
>
> Artur
>
>
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>
> pon., 10 maj 2021 o 16:26 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> napisał(a):
>
>> Dear Joanna and Jan (and other interested parties),
>>
>> I have a pdf of Heesterman 1957, but it is just an image scan not
>> "searchable" unfortunately.
>>
>> Best,
>> Caley
>>
>> On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 3:58 AM Jan E.M. Houben <jemhouben at gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Joanna,
>>> I have Heesterman's 1957 book on the Rajasuya but I don't have a scan or
>>> pdf...
>>> No result on archive.org either.
>>> Needless to say I would be really grateful in case anyone does have such
>>> a scan and can share it...
>>> Best regards,
>>> Jan
>>>
>>> On Mon, 10 May 2021 at 00:24, Joanna Jurewicz <j.jurewicz at uw.edu.pl>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thank you, Caley, for your inspiring remarks.
>>>>
>>>>  Am I right that a Vaiśya is one among those who sprinkled water over a
>>>> king during the Rajasuya? This could be a hint that the merchants were also
>>>> to some extent included into creation of royal power. My copy of
>>>> Heesterman's analysis of this ritual is somewhere lost among the papers...
>>>>
>>>> best wishes,
>>>>
>>>> Joanna
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>>
>>>> Prof. dr hab. Joanna Jurewicz
>>>>
>>>> Katedra Azji Południowej /Chair of South Asia Studies
>>>>
>>>> Wydział Orientalistyczny / Faculty of Oriental Studies
>>>>
>>>> Uniwersytet Warszawski /University of Warsaw
>>>>
>>>> ul. Krakowskie Przedmieście 26/28
>>>>
>>>> 00-927 Warszawa , Poland
>>>>
>>>> Department of Linguistics and Modern Languages
>>>>
>>>> College of Human Sciences
>>>>
>>>> UNISA
>>>>
>>>> Pretoria, RSA
>>>>
>>>> Member of Academia Europaea
>>>>
>>>> https://uw.academia.edu/JoannaJurewicz
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 21:06 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY <
>>>> indology at list.indology.info> napisał(a):
>>>>
>>>>> Dear Artur,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for your interest, but my latest research on the way Vedic
>>>>> texts conceptualize and reflect ideas like society, lineage, family, etc.
>>>>> and their conceptual history in the post-Vedic period...is not published
>>>>> yet and I'm still trying to think through it (some of my thoughts on this
>>>>> are in "The Invention of Vedic Authority" which will come out in Bloomsbury'*s
>>>>> A Cultural History of Hinduism in Antiquity *ed by Jarrod Whitaker).
>>>>> I will instead refer to other scholars' work which has influenced my
>>>>> thinking about the *yajña *a great deal (too name just a few:
>>>>> Proferes 2007 *Vedic Ideals of Sovereignty and the Poetics of Power, *Ferrara
>>>>> 2016 "One Yajña, Many Rituals" and Ferrara 2016 "The Function of the Yajña
>>>>> Between Practitioners and Clients", Jamison 2019 "Vedic Ritual: The
>>>>> Sacralization of the Mundane and the Domestication of the Sacred" (in the
>>>>> same volume as Jan's "Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India:
>>>>> Textual and Contextual Evidence.” ed. by Lauren Bausch)
>>>>>
>>>>> Most of my published work focuses on theorizing Vedic
>>>>> performativity/textuality (
>>>>> https://www.academia.edu/39608974/Adhiyaj%C3%B1a_Towards_a_Performance_Grammar_of_the_Vedas
>>>>> )
>>>>> and then using this performative lens to read Vedic narrative through
>>>>> that specific context
>>>>> (
>>>>> https://www.academia.edu/39278725/How_is_a_Vehicular_Homicide_Like_the_Sacrifice
>>>>> )
>>>>> (https://www.academia.edu/28122184/Exploring_impossible_authors_)
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>> Caley
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 1:13 PM Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Caley,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks for your thoughts - good material for meditation. Would you,
>>>>>> please, attach here the list of your publications?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Artur
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Wolny
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>>>>>>
>>>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 18:12 Caley Smith <smith.caley at gmail.com>
>>>>>> napisał(a):
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Artur,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would say... I don't know? Most Vedic ritual activities depict
>>>>>>> themselves as being ideally patronized by a materially-wealthy financiers
>>>>>>> or hoping for that (and despising stingy ones). The ritual moment is a kind
>>>>>>> of public moment when many clans are together and so the proto-śrauta
>>>>>>> system, I see, as a kind of inter-clan negotiation one
>>>>>>> which can produce a coalition, a detente to hostilities, as well as
>>>>>>> consecration, marriage, funerary activities. So the focus is really on the
>>>>>>> poetic-priestly tradition and these patrons as the audience. Not much
>>>>>>> mention of cities, urban life, etc. but it's also not necessarily the case
>>>>>>> that a clan that patronized Vedic ritual
>>>>>>> could not be construed through the categories of "farmers,
>>>>>>> craftsmen, merchants" in addition to what we expect (that is ranchers). I
>>>>>>> would say the texts care little for this kind of vision of society, and
>>>>>>> rather are focused on a society made of  generous and hospitable patrons
>>>>>>> (as opposed to stingy ones), and those in our coalition (as opposed to
>>>>>>> enemies/outsiders). But on urban life in the Vedas proper I have heard a
>>>>>>> vast silence---and that makes sense because cities were not "on the ritual
>>>>>>> ground" and nearly everything topical and of concern to the Vedas is
>>>>>>> happening on the ritual ground or is embedded in an aetiological narrative
>>>>>>> justifying something happening on the ritual ground. That does not mean
>>>>>>> that they didn't know about cities, but in my published work I don't write
>>>>>>> about urban life either because it is not the topic at hand (as I imagine
>>>>>>> Buddhist dhāraṇīs, for instance, don't have much to say about urban
>>>>>>> logistics either...). In which case, we wouldn't speak of "Vedic
>>>>>>> civilization" either, we would speak of Vedic "ceremony-networks" from
>>>>>>> which perhaps we can infer things about the historical political
>>>>>>> organizations that employed them.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On the other hand, by this description I am inherently assuming
>>>>>>> Vedic tradition is something that has to do with the "Vedic period" and
>>>>>>> "the Vedas," there are of course much later (pre/post Classical) texts that
>>>>>>> would claim the mantle of the Vedic tradition that *may* have a good deal
>>>>>>> to say about urban life, but if so I am ignorant of them currently and
>>>>>>> would love to know more.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>> Caley
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 11:49 AM Artur Karp <karp at uw.edu.pl> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Tak.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A few questions, perhaps simplistic, but nevertheless necessary.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Did something described as "Indian civilization" actually exist
>>>>>>>> (Caley:  <I am not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic
>>>>>>>> civilization" at that point.>).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If so - then when, where, in what forms?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Did farmers, craftsmen, merchants fully participate in it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Were the religious messages preserved in the Vedic texts accessible
>>>>>>>> to them linguistically - and conceptually?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Were early urban organisms administered by reference to Vedic legal
>>>>>>>> formulas, including, but not limited to, the cleaning up of urban spaces of
>>>>>>>> refuse, of animal and human excrement? Including taxation?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I would like to know where in the Vedic tradition I could find
>>>>>>>> these kinds of formulas. I see them in the Buddhist tradition, clearly -
>>>>>>>> but in the Vedic tradition?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Artur
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail> Wolny
>>>>>>>> od wirusów. www.avast.com
>>>>>>>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail>
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>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> niedz., 9 maj 2021 o 16:51 Caley Smith via INDOLOGY <
>>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> napisał(a):
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Dear Jan,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thank you for making this PDF available, I have a hard copy but
>>>>>>>>> it's always useful to have a digital one too.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I too feel the comparison is fraught, please correct me if my
>>>>>>>>> musings are completely wrong, but it seems to narrowly define Nazism as a
>>>>>>>>> kind of anti-urban sentiment, and I don't think that is the case at all.
>>>>>>>>> Rather, the Nazis who patronized the House of German Art were
>>>>>>>>> *urban*! We know of many lyric poetic traditions (from the Sangam
>>>>>>>>> to the troubadours of Provençe) who loved to represent the bucolic scene in
>>>>>>>>> their verbal art yet that art was performed at a courtly non-rural setting.
>>>>>>>>> So are all these "anti-urban" and thus some species of Nazism? Hardly.
>>>>>>>>> There is a much more immediate reason why urban Nazis might have preferred
>>>>>>>>> landscapes, namely they figured themselves to be natural inherent landlords
>>>>>>>>> of the country (the Volk) and thus the sole owners/stakeholders of the
>>>>>>>>> government. Everyone else is either an outsider or a service tenant in this
>>>>>>>>> model, no? Urbanites viewing scenes of ruralia seems to me to be more about
>>>>>>>>> constructing a vision of themselves as these landlords, like the
>>>>>>>>> slave-owning plantation owners in the US that Hitler admired (and of course
>>>>>>>>> a feature of classical liberalism is that only landed gentry can vote, that
>>>>>>>>> is "own" the govt; "manifest destiny" easily becomes the quest for
>>>>>>>>> Lebensraum). In other words, the museum becomes a way for urban Nazis to
>>>>>>>>> conceive of their place in their domain.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And maybe this isn't the whole story, but it seems to be radically
>>>>>>>>> different from the middle (even late) Vedic situation, which derives
>>>>>>>>> directly from a real pastoral/horticultural mode of subsistence in which
>>>>>>>>> pasturage/fields are not part of self-idealization but actually the basis
>>>>>>>>> of food production. The elaborate inter-clan hospitality rituals of the
>>>>>>>>> Vedas speaks more to an anxiety of the fragile nature of that existence and
>>>>>>>>> the tenuous balance of power. Rather than anti-urban, I imagine that urban
>>>>>>>>> centers were simply irrelevant to Vedic civilization at first, their more
>>>>>>>>> immediate concerns were inter-clan politics on the ground. Now,
>>>>>>>>> post-Alexander and post-Aśoka we may have a very different story but I am
>>>>>>>>> not sure if we should continue to call it "Vedic civilization" at that
>>>>>>>>> point. And if we are talking about post-Alexander/post-Aśoka then we are
>>>>>>>>> talking about a radically different community, arguably traumatized, and
>>>>>>>>> newly reactionary. I think that's a very different and new set of aesthetic
>>>>>>>>> commitments and social concerns guiding the proto-Dharma tradition than
>>>>>>>>> that of the middle/late Vedic period proper.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Perhaps there is something in the comparison I have completely
>>>>>>>>> misunderstood, and if so mea culpa, but otherwise I don't get it.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>> Caley
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Sun, May 9, 2021 at 9:59 AM Jan E.M. Houben via INDOLOGY <
>>>>>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>>>>> A fascinating symposium on "Greater Magadha" is at present taking
>>>>>>>>>> place at Edmonton (Alberta), Canada, and on account of the ongoing epidemic
>>>>>>>>>> it is entirely online: the announcement (
>>>>>>>>>> http://eventleaf.com/GreaterMagadha) is accessible on several
>>>>>>>>>> lists.
>>>>>>>>>> In a brief presentation and subsequent discussion of his theory
>>>>>>>>>> at the beginning of this symposium -- a detailed argument and extensive
>>>>>>>>>> references to pieces of evidence for this stimulating and well-researched
>>>>>>>>>> theory is found in his *Greater Magadha: Studies in the culture
>>>>>>>>>> of early India* (Leiden 2007) --   Johannes Bronkhorst referred
>>>>>>>>>> briefly to his comparison between Brahmins (and their cultural context) and
>>>>>>>>>> the German Nazis (and their cultural context). On this specific reference
>>>>>>>>>> by Johannes Bronkhorst during the symposium, I posed a question in the
>>>>>>>>>> special section set up by the organizers of the conference: "Questions and
>>>>>>>>>> answers will be conducted over a separate service, sli.do."
>>>>>>>>>> Since my question, although it received several "upvotes", did
>>>>>>>>>> not pass the censorship of the anonymous "moderator" of the online
>>>>>>>>>> questions -- who wrote to me "3 days ago (only visible to you) There was no
>>>>>>>>>> such comparison" -- it would be useful to pose the question in other fora
>>>>>>>>>> such as this Indology List.
>>>>>>>>>> Those familiar with the work and especially the *Greater Magadha*
>>>>>>>>>> book of Johannes Bronkhorst -- this apparently does not include the
>>>>>>>>>> anonymous moderator of the Questions section of the symposium -- will have
>>>>>>>>>> immediately recognized that the remark by Johannes Bronkhorst refers to pp.
>>>>>>>>>> 251-252 of *Greater Magadha* (and similar passages elsewhere),
>>>>>>>>>> where we read:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "when it came in contact with cities, Vedic civilization did not
>>>>>>>>>> like them.
>>>>>>>>>> ...
>>>>>>>>>> It is hard to resist the temptation of a comparison with the
>>>>>>>>>> Third Reich.
>>>>>>>>>> Among the hundreds of paintings brought together in the House of
>>>>>>>>>> German Art
>>>>>>>>>> in Munich, opened by Hitler in 1937, not a single canvas depicted
>>>>>>>>>> urban and
>>>>>>>>>> industrial life (Watson, 2004: 311-312)."
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The comparison is both inappropriate and inapt, especially since
>>>>>>>>>> a very different analysis of the situation of the community of practicing
>>>>>>>>>> Brahmins in ancient India is possible, for instance the one proposed by me
>>>>>>>>>> in:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> “From Fuzzy-Edged ‘Family-Veda’ to the Canonical Śākhas of the
>>>>>>>>>> Catur-Veda: Structures and Tangible Traces.” In: *Vedic Śākhās:
>>>>>>>>>> Past, Present, Future. Proceedings of the Fifth International Vedic
>>>>>>>>>> Workshop, Bucharest* 2011, ed. by J.E.M. Houben, J. Rotaru and
>>>>>>>>>> M. Witzel, p. 159-192. Cambridge, Mass. : Harvard University, 2016.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As the book is at present no more available but will soon again
>>>>>>>>>> be available in a new edition, I have made this study *temporarily*
>>>>>>>>>> accessible on my Academia.edu page.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The main principles followed in this study to explain the
>>>>>>>>>> situation of the community of practicing Brahmins in ancient India are (1)
>>>>>>>>>> "natural selection" in the transmission of knowledge through any current
>>>>>>>>>> medium of transmission (at first exclusively ritual, next ritual plus
>>>>>>>>>> written texts, inscriptions and manuscripts -- much later printing is added
>>>>>>>>>> and at present the internet...): see e.g. Houben 2001; (2) ritual in the
>>>>>>>>>> context of an *evolving* economical and ecological world: see Houben 2019
>>>>>>>>>> (see also: Gadgil and Guha, *This Fissured Land: an Ecological
>>>>>>>>>> History of India*, 1992 and Perennials edition 2013).
>>>>>>>>>> N.B. Both Houben 2001:
>>>>>>>>>> “’Verschriftlichung' and the relation between the *pramāṇa*s in
>>>>>>>>>> the history of Sāṁkhya.” *Études de Lettres* 2001.3: *La
>>>>>>>>>> rationalité en Asie / Rationality in Asia*, ed. by J.
>>>>>>>>>> Bronkhorst: 165-194.
>>>>>>>>>> and Houben 2019:
>>>>>>>>>> “Ecology of Ritual Innovation in Ancient India: Textual and
>>>>>>>>>> Contextual Evidence.” [NB: partly comparing and contrasting Vedic and
>>>>>>>>>> ancient Iranian ritual.] In: *Self, Sacrifice, and Cosmos: Vedic
>>>>>>>>>> Thought, Ritual, and Philosophy. Essays in Honor of Professor Ganesh
>>>>>>>>>> Umakant Thite’s Contribution to Vedic Studies*, ed. by Lauren M.
>>>>>>>>>> Bausch, pp. 182-210 (References to this article integrated in id.,
>>>>>>>>>> “Bibliography,” pp. 223-238.) Delhi: Primus Books
>>>>>>>>>> are now accessible on my Academia.edu page.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I hope and expect the issue will lead to further fruitful
>>>>>>>>>> discussions.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> All best, Jan Houben
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Groupe de recherches en études indiennes (EA 2120)
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>>>>>>>>>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> *https://www.classicalindia.info*
>>>>>>>>>> <https://www.classicalindia.info>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augmentée:
>>>>>>>>>> construction, transmission
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>> https://list.indology.info/mailman/listinfo/indology
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
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>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> *Jan E.M. Houben*
>>>
>>> Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology
>>>
>>> *Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*
>>>
>>> École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)
>>>
>>> *Sciences historiques et philologiques *
>>>
>>> Groupe de recherches en études indiennes (EA 2120)
>>>
>>> *johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*
>>>
>>> *https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
>>> <https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*
>>>
>>> *https://www.classicalindia.info* <https://www.classicalindia.info>
>>>
>>> LabEx Hastec OS 2021 -- *L'Inde Classique* augmentée: construction,
>>> transmission
>>>
>>> et transformations d'un savoir scientifique
>>>
>>
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