[INDOLOGY] Manusmriti ... (Olivelle, J P)

Fri Oct 30 16:30:25 UTC 2020

Dear V.S. Rajam,
Thanks for having raised these points including those to current events in
Tamilnadu, useful to know even for list members who primarily want or hope
to be able to pursue their Indological studies as an enterprise of 'pure
science'.
The ways of use and abuse of a text are almost limitless, and one of these
uses, probably one of the most valid ones, is: to better understand an
ancient society.
If that is our aim, the Manusmrti as a source on the position of women in
classical India has to be supplemented, minimally, by the Mahābhārata,
Sources on the Buddha and Āmrapālī and on the Buddha and women aspiring to
become nuns, the Kāmasūtra ... a closer study from a modern politicized
perspective may or may not lead to the burning of these sources as well...
With best regards,
Jan Houben

On Thu, 29 Oct 2020 at 20:55, rajam via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Thank you very much!!! You can imagine how it trickles down to Tamilnadu,
> especially to people who don’t know Sanskrit and who hate Hinduism,
> brahmins, … and so on. People who hate brahmins use Manusmriti and similar
> texts as their tools in their politics. I wonder how many of them could
> read these original texts in Sanskrit. Depending upon the translations,
> everyone’s understanding and interpretation may vary. It is truly a sad
> scene.
>
> Thanks and Regards,
> V.S. Rajam
>
> On Oct 29, 2020, at 12:27 PM, Donald R Davis via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
> The context at the beginning of Chapter 9 is the law or duties between a
> man and wife. However, the misogyny of the text is unmistakeable (though
> hardly out of line with nearly all texts in antiquity) and 9.14-15 seem to
> (mis-)characterize females generally. However, I would add is that
> pauṃścalya here denotes lust or an innate sexual desire for men. While it
> may sometimes refer to a prostitute, the primary meaning of “prostitute”
> (at least in American English) is one who has sex *in exchange for money*.
> Granted, there are other meanings, but the money piece matters, I think,
> because the condemnation in Manu is about women’s temptations and
> attributed inclinations toward adultery, not prostitution in a strict
> sense. The passage is exhorting husbands to control their wives (or, more
> deviously, keep women hyper-occupied, 9.10-12) in order to prevent their
> adultery. It then justifies this control on the false grounds of women’s
> innate lechery, fickleness, and general inconstancy.
>
> The question might be asked whether the English distinction of adultery
> and prostitution maps on precisely and consistently to Sanskrit terms, but
> it would seem important to keep the two distinct at the outset.
>
> Best, Don
>
> Don Davis
> Dept. of Asian Studies
> University of Texas at Austin
>
>
>
>
> *From: *INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of "
> indology at list.indology.info" <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Reply-To: *rajam <rajam at earthlink.net>
> *Date: *Thursday, October 29, 2020 at 1:54 PM
> *To: *DIEGO LOUKOTA SANCLEMENTE <diegoloukota at ucla.edu>
> *Cc: *"indology at list.indology.info" <indology at list.indology.info>
> *Subject: *Re: [INDOLOGY] Manusmriti ... (Olivelle, J P)
>
> Thank you very much for the explanation!
>
> Could you please also verify if these specific *śloka*s refer to “all
> women” in general or only certain women?
>
> Thanks again,
> V.S. Rajam
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 29, 2020, at 10:21 AM, DIEGO LOUKOTA SANCLEMENTE via INDOLOGY <
> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>
>
>    Dear all,
>
>    With regard to Manu and "women being prostitutes," and with respect
> and utter admiration for Prof. Olivelle, I would like to suggest that some
>  *śloka*s of the passages already mentioned suggest something beyond a
> simple "need to guard [women] from even the slightest attachment to
> sensual pleasure":
>
>
>
>
>
> *naitā rūpaṃ parīkṣante nāsāṃ vayasi saṃsthitiḥsurūpaṃ vā virūpaṃ vā pumān
> ity eva bhuñjate pauṃścalyāc calacittāc ca naisnehyāc ca
> svabhāvataḥ rakṣitā yatnato 'pīha bhartṛṣv etā vikurvate *
>
>    In Prof. Olivelle's own translation ("they"=women, caps for emphasis
> mine):
>
> "They pay no attention to beauty, they pay no heed to age; whether he is
> good looking or ugly, they make love to him with the single thought, "He's
> a man!" Because of the lechery, fickleness of mind, and hard-heartedness
> that are innate in them, EVEN WHEN THEY ARE CAREFULLY GUARDED IN THIS
> WORLD, they become hostile towards their husband"
>
>    I would remark here that although "lechery" is of course entirely
> adequate, *pauṃścalya*>*puṃś-calī* is literally "one who runs after men," idiomatically
> and unequivocally a "prostitute," so perhaps something like "whorishness"
> or "sl at ttiness" may convey more directly the flavour of the Sanskrit word.
>
>
>    On a personal note, I feel the venerable Manu to be, without much
> exegesis or word-bending, pretty antagonistic to a modern feminist agenda,
> which I support.
>
>    *namaskaromi*,
>
>    Diego
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-- 

*Jan E.M. Houben*

Directeur d'Études, Professor of South Asian History and Philology

*Sources et histoire de la tradition sanskrite*

École Pratique des Hautes Études (EPHE, Paris Sciences et Lettres)

*Sciences historiques et philologiques *

*johannes.houben [at] ephe.psl.eu <johannes.houben at ephe.psl.eu>*

*https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben
<https://ephe-sorbonne.academia.edu/JanEMHouben>*

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