[INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?

Wed Nov 18 15:07:20 UTC 2020

It's interesting (to me) to think about this issue you raise, James, of
taking reincarnation "as something that might be 'real' in the western
scientifically-oriented sense".  First, let's get rid of "western".
Everybody does science and has done for a couple of centuries, so it's been
global for a long time and I don't think you really mean to make a
statement about historical origins.  Moving on, the idea of equating
reality with scientific investigation is, at heart, a question about
pramāṇas, I think.  In his famous essay, ‘The Purpose of Philosophy’,
Isaiah Berlin categorizes questions according to the means used to answer
them.  Questions may be solved by empirical means, by formal means (e.g.,
mathematics or chess).  But the third category is questions about which we
are uncertain about how to answer them.  Those are philosophical questions
(I would say, metaphysical questions).   So your proposal for examining
reincarnation scientifically could be restated as a call to consider it as
an empirical question, rather than as a formal or philosophical one.  That
means there should be some falsifiable criteria available for testing
conjectures.

Best,
Dominik

On Wed, 18 Nov 2020 at 02:32, James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <
indology at list.indology.info> wrote:

> Getting back to Dean's original question on whether rebirth is
> karma-deterministic or not:
> In cognitive neuroscience prediction, randomness, probability, are all
> major research topics -- there are many aspects of the data we can study
> about the mind and brain that involve these ideas, including ranging from
> something sometimes called 'ballistic' in the sense of basically automatic
> and highly predictable, to other functionality that appears nearly random,
> freedom of choice, etc. There's a lot of mathematical modeling involved
> (aka computational neuroscience).
> If we take the idea of reincarnation seriously, i.e., not just as a
> cultural artefact, but something that might be 'real' in the western
> scientifically-oriented sense (i.e, just as 'real' as the Indo-Tibetan
> traditions consider it), then all sorts of interesting research questions
> come up, and Dean's original question would be central to these.  A couple
> of such questions might be: a) Could an incarnating person be somehow
> capable of choosing parents/family specifically, or would there inevitably
> be a certain degree of randomness or unpredictability involved, perhaps
> mathematically akin to modeling and predicting the weather?  b) What might
> be the criteria for an incarnator to be capable of choice, or, rather be
> deterministically/ballistically driven by prior karma?
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 8:24 PM Eli Franco <franco at uni-leipzig.de> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Dear Matthew,
>> It all goes back to the Abhidharmakosabhasya. See AKBh on AK 3.15ab,
>> but Pradhan's edition has a lacuna here. Therefore:
>> dLVP, vol. 3, p. 50.
>> Best wishes,
>> Eli
>>
>>
>> Zitat von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:
>>
>> > The "Freudian-like" aspect of the rebirth process in Buddhist
>> > tantric sources is well-known. I do not recall whether Jung takes it
>> > up in his introduction to the Tibetan "Book of the Dead", the Bar do
>> > thos grol, but Indian Buddhist materials clearly reference this as
>> > well. A brief but important study is Filliozat's:
>> > https://indianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/33562/
>> > Unfortunately, a pdf does not seem to be readily available.
>> > Guy Bugault has studied the antecedents:
>> > https://www.cairn.info/l-inde-pense-t-elle--9782130464822-page-197.htm
>> >
>> > One might consult Robert Kritzer's several works dealing with
>> > rebirth as well:
>> > https://notredame.academia.edu/RobertKritzer
>> >
>> > best,
>> > Matthew
>> >
>> > Matthew Kapstein
>> > Directeur d'études, émérite
>> > Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
>> >
>> > Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
>> > The University of Chicago
>> > ________________________________
>> > From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
>> > James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 2:48 AM
>> > To: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>; Tom Yarnall
>> > <ty37 at columbia.edu>; David Gray <dgray at scu.edu>
>> > Cc: indology at list.indology.info <indology at list.indology.info>
>> > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a
>> > semi-random process?
>> >
>> > No, I don't.
>> > Perhaps @Tom Yarnall<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>  @David
>> > Gray<mailto:dgray at scu.edu>  @Christian Wedermeyer, @Bob Thurman or
>> > others might recall
>> >
>> > On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:26 AM Dean Michael Anderson
>> > <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>> wrote:
>> > Thanks James.
>> >
>> > Do you happen to remember the title?
>> >
>> > Dean
>> >
>> >
>> > On Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 1:38:21 PM GMT+5:30, James Hartzell
>> > <james.hartzell at gmail.com<mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> > Hi Dean
>> >
>> > Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text
>> > with Bob Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time
>> > might remember the title) and it had an interesting bit on
>> > reincarnation, with the incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual
>> > attraction towards the new mother if being born as a male, or
>> > towards the new father if being born as a female, and seeing the
>> > house as a palace regardless of its actual appearance. If I recall
>> > correctly there was something in the text about the incarnator's
>> > karma playing a key role in the parental/home selection/perception,
>> > and there may have been something there about a certain randomness
>> > or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to your question.
>> >
>> > Cheers
>> > James
>> >
>> > On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY
>> > <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
>> > wrote:
>> > Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as
>> > far as the claim that I'd heard about.
>> >
>> > I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all
>> recommended.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > Dean
>> >
>> > On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich
>> > Koch via INDOLOGY
>> > <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Dear Dean,
>> > another aspect may be helpful:
>> >
>> > because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell,
>> > I see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (Āyuḥparyantasūtra)  a
>> > systematically composed description (Sanskrit-Śloka) connects
>> > specific actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
>> > When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If
>> > he is a robber in hell 8 etc.
>> > This description is adapted in several later works and found also
>> > his way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature
>> > and is still observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.
>> >
>> > I did not translate the complete Āyuḥparyantasūtra. If you can read
>> > Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the
>> > answer of your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.
>> >
>> > Best
>> > Heiner
>> >
>> >
>> > Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
>> > Dear Dean,
>> >
>> > Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.
>> >
>> > The idea that good karman doesn’t invariably immediately lead to
>> > pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn’t invariably immediately lead
>> > to unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibhaṅga-sutta
>> > (MN III 207–15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan
>> > translation).
>> >
>> > Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of
>> > both the Theravāda and Sarvāstivāda refers to the following
>> > categories of karman in the context of determining which of a
>> > being's infinite past actions might determine rebirth:
>> >
>> > weighty (garuka/guru)
>> > near to death (āsanna)
>> > habitual (āciṇṇa/abhyasta)
>> > something previously done (kaṭattākamma/pūrvakṛta)
>> >
>> > See e.g. Vism 601–602 (XIX.14–16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477,
>> > Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719.
>> >
>> > In other words, if you have done something really ‘weighty' in this
>> > life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience
>> > the unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you
>> > haven’t done anything weighty (most of us?), then either something
>> > done close to the time of death or something done habitually will
>> > tend to come into play (there is some hesitation in the sources on
>> > whether to give precedence to near-death actions or habitual
>> > actions). Failing these two, then any past action from any past life
>> > may, depending on a variety of conditions, come into play. The
>> > sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand the
>> > complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus
>> > from the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from
>> > the perspective of a buddha it is not.
>> >
>> > Best wishes,
>> >
>> > Rupert
>> > --
>> > Rupert Gethin
>> > Professor of Buddhist Studies
>> > University of Bristol
>> >
>> > Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>
>> >
>> > On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY
>> > <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > Dear fellow members of the Indology list,
>> >
>> > Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic
>> > process based on past karma.
>> >
>> > I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists,
>> > consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as
>> > something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random
>> > collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is
>> > not so strictly deterministic.
>> >
>> > I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.
>> >
>> > Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this
>> idea ?
>> >
>> > Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other
>> > reincarnation-based religions?
>> >
>> > Best,
>> >
>> > Dean Anderson
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
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>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > INDOLOGY mailing list
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>> > indology-owner at list.indology.info<mailto:
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>> > (messages to the list's managing committee)
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>> >
>> > --
>> > Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
>> > www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com<
>> http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com>
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > INDOLOGY mailing list
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>> >
>> > --
>> > James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
>> > Donostia-San Sebatián, Spain
>> > Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
>> > Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
>> > Donostia-San Sebatián, Spain
>> > Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
>> > Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
>>
>>
>> --
>> Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
>> Institut für Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
>> Schillerstr. 6
>> 04109 Leipzig
>>
>> Ph. +49 341 9737 121, 9737 120 (dept. office)
>> Fax +49 341 9737 148
>>
>>
>>
>
> --
> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> Donostia-San Sebatián, Spain
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
>
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