[INDOLOGY] [External] Re: sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?

Wed Nov 18 01:12:17 UTC 2020

It may be worth noting that the “Freudian” aspects of rebirth were described in the Saddharmasmṛtyupasthāna-sūtra translation attributed to Gautama Prajñāruci and said to be completed between 538-541 CE.

Arthur Waley had already identified it and translated the section in Edward Conze, ed. Buddhist Text Through the Ages, Oxford: Bruno Cassirer, 1954, p. 283. This references T.721.17.200c13-28. Waley did identify the Abhidharmakośa as a source as well.

Given its articulation in two sources translated into Chinese within a few decades of each other (the Abhidharmakośa is said to be first translated by Paramārtha 563-568 CE), it is possible to hypothesize that the idea could be older than either text.

Best wishes,
Ron

______________________________________________
Ronald M. Davidson, Ph.D.
Professor of Religious Studies
Co-director, Digital Humanities Consortium
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From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of Eli Franco via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
Reply-To: Eli Franco <franco at uni-leipzig.de>
Date: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 at 2:25 PM
To: Matthew Kapstein <mkapstei at uchicago.edu>
Cc: David Gray <dgray at scu.edu>, "indology at list.indology.info" <indology at list.indology.info>, Tom Yarnall <ty37 at columbia.edu>
Subject: [External] Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?

Dear Matthew,
It all goes back to the Abhidharmakosabhasya. See AKBh on AK 3.15ab,
but Pradhan's edition has a lacuna here. Therefore:
dLVP, vol. 3, p. 50.
Best wishes,
Eli

Zitat von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>:

The "Freudian-like" aspect of the rebirth process in Buddhist
tantric sources is well-known. I do not recall whether Jung takes it
up in his introduction to the Tibetan "Book of the Dead", the Bar do
thos grol, but Indian Buddhist materials clearly reference this as
well. A brief but important study is Filliozat's:
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://indianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/33562/__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!QONdVhm10tdKayMdukxKQH0VaiBC0YZs4Hew2W8sbb0Q63HDDIy4WJAOJ_fEz9AcQ-ZX$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/indianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/33562/__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!QONdVhm10tdKayMdukxKQH0VaiBC0YZs4Hew2W8sbb0Q63HDDIy4WJAOJ_fEz9AcQ-ZX$>
Unfortunately, a pdf does not seem to be readily available.
Guy Bugault has studied the antecedents:
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.cairn.info/l-inde-pense-t-elle--9782130464822-page-197.htm__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!QONdVhm10tdKayMdukxKQH0VaiBC0YZs4Hew2W8sbb0Q63HDDIy4WJAOJ_fEz4g8-OL3$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/www.cairn.info/l-inde-pense-t-elle--9782130464822-page-197.htm__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!QONdVhm10tdKayMdukxKQH0VaiBC0YZs4Hew2W8sbb0Q63HDDIy4WJAOJ_fEz4g8-OL3$>

One might consult Robert Kritzer's several works dealing with
rebirth as well:
https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://notredame.academia.edu/RobertKritzer__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!QONdVhm10tdKayMdukxKQH0VaiBC0YZs4Hew2W8sbb0Q63HDDIy4WJAOJ_fEzxdzT434$<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/notredame.academia.edu/RobertKritzer__;!!KIFmrYtlezdzESbnm_I!QONdVhm10tdKayMdukxKQH0VaiBC0YZs4Hew2W8sbb0Q63HDDIy4WJAOJ_fEzxdzT434$>

best,
Matthew

Matthew Kapstein
Directeur d'études, émérite
Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris

Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
The University of Chicago
________________________________
From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info<mailto:indology-bounces at list.indology.info>> on behalf of
James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 2:48 AM
To: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>>; Tom Yarnall
<ty37 at columbia.edu<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>>; David Gray <dgray at scu.edu<mailto:dgray at scu.edu>>
Cc: indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a
semi-random process?

No, I don't.
Perhaps @Tom Yarnall<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>  @David
Gray<mailto:dgray at scu.edu>  @Christian Wedermeyer, @Bob Thurman or
others might recall

On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:26 AM Dean Michael Anderson
<eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com><mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com><mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com%3e>> wrote:
Thanks James.

Do you happen to remember the title?

Dean

On Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 1:38:21 PM GMT+5:30, James Hartzell
<james.hartzell at gmail.com<mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com><mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com><mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com%3e>> wrote:

Hi Dean

Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text
with Bob Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time
might remember the title) and it had an interesting bit on
reincarnation, with the incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual
attraction towards the new mother if being born as a male, or
towards the new father if being born as a female, and seeing the
house as a palace regardless of its actual appearance. If I recall
correctly there was something in the text about the incarnator's
karma playing a key role in the parental/home selection/perception,
and there may have been something there about a certain randomness
or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to your question.

Cheers
James

On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY
<indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info%3e>>
wrote:
Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as
far as the claim that I'd heard about.

I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all recommended.

Best,

Dean

On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich
Koch via INDOLOGY
<indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info%3e>>
wrote:

Dear Dean,
another aspect may be helpful:

because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell,
I see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (Āyuḥparyantasūtra)  a
systematically composed description (Sanskrit-Śloka) connects
specific actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If
he is a robber in hell 8 etc.
This description is adapted in several later works and found also
his way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature
and is still observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.

I did not translate the complete Āyuḥparyantasūtra. If you can read
Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the
answer of your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.

Best
Heiner

Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
Dear Dean,

Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.

The idea that good karman doesn’t invariably immediately lead to
pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn’t invariably immediately lead
to unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibhaṅga-sutta
(MN III 207–15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan
translation).

Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of
both the Theravāda and Sarvāstivāda refers to the following
categories of karman in the context of determining which of a
being's infinite past actions might determine rebirth:

weighty (garuka/guru)
near to death (āsanna)
habitual (āciṇṇa/abhyasta)
something previously done (kaṭattākamma/pūrvakṛta)

See e.g. Vism 601–602 (XIX.14–16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477,
Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719.

In other words, if you have done something really ‘weighty' in this
life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience
the unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you
haven’t done anything weighty (most of us?), then either something
done close to the time of death or something done habitually will
tend to come into play (there is some hesitation in the sources on
whether to give precedence to near-death actions or habitual
actions). Failing these two, then any past action from any past life
may, depending on a variety of conditions, come into play. The
sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand the
complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus
from the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from
the perspective of a buddha it is not.

Best wishes,

Rupert
--
Rupert Gethin
Professor of Buddhist Studies
University of Bristol

Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk><mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>

On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY
<indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info><mailto:indology at list.indology.info%3e>>
wrote:

Dear fellow members of the Indology list,

Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic
process based on past karma.

I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists,
consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as
something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random
collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is
not so strictly deterministic.

I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.

Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this idea ?

Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other
reincarnation-based religions?

Best,

Dean Anderson

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--
James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
Donostia-San Sebatián, Spain
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA

--
James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
Donostia-San Sebatián, Spain
Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA

--
Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
Institut für Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
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04109 Leipzig

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Fax +49 341 9737 148

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