[INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a semi-random process?

Tue Nov 17 19:24:29 UTC 2020

Dear Matthew,
It all goes back to the Abhidharmakosabhasya. See AKBh on AK 3.15ab,  
but Pradhan's edition has a lacuna here. Therefore:
dLVP, vol. 3, p. 50.
Best wishes,
Eli

Zitat von Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>:

> The "Freudian-like" aspect of the rebirth process in Buddhist  
> tantric sources is well-known. I do not recall whether Jung takes it  
> up in his introduction to the Tibetan "Book of the Dead", the Bar do  
> thos grol, but Indian Buddhist materials clearly reference this as  
> well. A brief but important study is Filliozat's:
> https://indianmedicine.eldoc.ub.rug.nl/33562/
> Unfortunately, a pdf does not seem to be readily available.
> Guy Bugault has studied the antecedents:
> https://www.cairn.info/l-inde-pense-t-elle--9782130464822-page-197.htm
>
> One might consult Robert Kritzer's several works dealing with  
> rebirth as well:
> https://notredame.academia.edu/RobertKritzer
>
> best,
> Matthew
>
> Matthew Kapstein
> Directeur d'études, émérite
> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
>
> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> The University of Chicago
> ________________________________
> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of  
> James Hartzell via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 17, 2020 2:48 AM
> To: Dean Michael Anderson <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>; Tom Yarnall  
> <ty37 at columbia.edu>; David Gray <dgray at scu.edu>
> Cc: indology at list.indology.info <indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] sources for the idea that reincarnation is a  
> semi-random process?
>
> No, I don't.
> Perhaps @Tom Yarnall<mailto:ty37 at columbia.edu>  @David  
> Gray<mailto:dgray at scu.edu>  @Christian Wedermeyer, @Bob Thurman or  
> others might recall
>
> On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 9:26 AM Dean Michael Anderson  
> <eastwestcultural at yahoo.com<mailto:eastwestcultural at yahoo.com>> wrote:
> Thanks James.
>
> Do you happen to remember the title?
>
> Dean
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 17, 2020, 1:38:21 PM GMT+5:30, James Hartzell  
> <james.hartzell at gmail.com<mailto:james.hartzell at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Dean
>
> Great question. Back in the 1990s we read a Tibetan medical text  
> with Bob Thurman at Columbia (some of my fellow students at the time  
> might remember the title) and it had an interesting bit on  
> reincarnation, with the incarnator feeling Freudian-like sexual  
> attraction towards the new mother if being born as a male, or  
> towards the new father if being born as a female, and seeing the  
> house as a palace regardless of its actual appearance. If I recall  
> correctly there was something in the text about the incarnator's  
> karma playing a key role in the parental/home selection/perception,  
> and there may have been something there about a certain randomness  
> or uncertainty in the process that may be relevant to your question.
>
> Cheers
> James
>
> On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:15 PM Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY  
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>  
> wrote:
> Thanks to everyone who's replied so far. None of these seem to go as  
> far as the claim that I'd heard about.
>
> I'll have to try to look into the original texts that you all recommended.
>
> Best,
>
> Dean
>
> On Monday, November 16, 2020, 8:02:44 PM GMT+5:30, Rolf Heinrich  
> Koch via INDOLOGY  
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>  
> wrote:
>
>
>
> Dear Dean,
> another aspect may be helpful:
>
> because I am doing some research on the concept of karman and hell,  
> I see that already in the Gilgit-manuscripts (Āyuḥparyantasūtra)  a  
> systematically composed description (Sanskrit-Śloka) connects  
> specific actions (karman) with the rebirth in certain hells.
> When someone kills his mother his rebirth takes place in hell 1. If  
> he is a robber in hell 8 etc.
> This description is adapted in several later works and found also  
> his way, probably via Burmese monks, in the later Pali-literature  
> and is still observed in Thailand, Sri Lanka etc.
>
> I did not translate the complete Āyuḥparyantasūtra. If you can read  
> Sanskrit (there is also a Tibetan translation) you may find the  
> answer of your question beyond the rebirth in a hell.
>
> Best
> Heiner
>
>
> Am 16.11.2020 um 13:50 schrieb Rupert Gethin via INDOLOGY:
> Dear Dean,
>
> Not sure if the following is relevant to you query.
>
> The idea that good karman doesn’t invariably immediately lead to  
> pleasant rebirth and bad karman doesn’t invariably immediately lead  
> to unpleasant rebirth is discussed in the Mahakammavibhaṅga-sutta  
> (MN III 207–15, with parallels surviving in Chinese and Tibetan  
> translation).
>
> Later Buddhist systematic thought in the Abhidharma traditions of  
> both the Theravāda and Sarvāstivāda refers to the following  
> categories of karman in the context of determining which of a  
> being's infinite past actions might determine rebirth:
>
> weighty (garuka/guru)
> near to death (āsanna)
> habitual (āciṇṇa/abhyasta)
> something previously done (kaṭattākamma/pūrvakṛta)
>
> See e.g. Vism 601–602 (XIX.14–16), Abhidh-k-bh (Pradhan) 477,  
> Abhidh-k-vy (Wogihara) 719.
>
> In other words, if you have done something really ‘weighty' in this  
> life (killed your mother or father, etc.) you're going to experience  
> the unpleasant results in your next rebirth come what may. If you  
> haven’t done anything weighty (most of us?), then either something  
> done close to the time of death or something done habitually will  
> tend to come into play (there is some hesitation in the sources on  
> whether to give precedence to near-death actions or habitual  
> actions). Failing these two, then any past action from any past life  
> may, depending on a variety of conditions, come into play. The  
> sources add that only buddhas can really see and understand the  
> complex of conditions that govern which karman ripens when. Thus  
> from the perspective of ordinary folk it may appear random, but from  
> the perspective of a buddha it is not.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Rupert
> --
> Rupert Gethin
> Professor of Buddhist Studies
> University of Bristol
>
> Email: Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk<mailto:Rupert.Gethin at bristol.ac.uk>
>
> On 15 Nov 2020, at 23:53, Dean Michael Anderson via INDOLOGY  
> <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>>  
> wrote:
>
> Dear fellow members of the Indology list,
>
> Most people think of reincarnation being a somewhat deterministic  
> process based on past karma.
>
> I read someplace, however, that Tibetans, and maybe other Buddhists,  
> consider the process of assigning one's karma for the next life as  
> something akin to reaching into a box of chips and grabbing a random  
> collection of karmas that set in motion the next life. Thus, it is  
> not so strictly deterministic.
>
> I'm sorry if I'm not describing this accurately.
>
> Can anyone point me to some original sources or commentaries for this idea ?
>
> Also, is this something that is mentioned in Hinduism or other  
> reincarnation-based religions?
>
> Best,
>
> Dean Anderson
>
>
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>
> --
> Dr. Rolf Heinrich Koch
> www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com<http://www.rolfheinrichkoch.wordpress.com>
>
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> --
> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> Donostia-San Sebatián, Spain
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA
>
>
>
> --
> James Hartzell, PhD (2x)
> Donostia-San Sebatián, Spain
> Center for Mind/Brain Sciences (CIMeC), The University of Trento, Italy
> Center for Buddhist Studies, Columbia University, USA

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