[INDOLOGY] Retroflexion and gender in viruses

Mon Mar 30 15:59:39 UTC 2020

Very stimulating discussion, John.  By the way, the क्षुभ्नादिगण is a
so-called आकृतिगण, and Patanjali includes the expression नृनमन in this
Gaṇa.  In any case, my point is that there are exceptions to rules in
Pāṇini, and this becomes an issue with loan vocabulary.  A good example
that comes to my mind is the Marathi name जिजाबाई, the mother of king
Shivaji.  In Sanskrit dramas and epics written on Shivaji's life in the
last few centuries, she is represented by words like जिजामाता.  However,
when it comes to pronunciation, the Marathi word जिजा is not like Sanskrit
ज.  While ज in जि is palatal like Sanskrit, ज in जा is an alveolar.  In
Sanskrit renderings that I have heard in Pune, the Marathi distinction is
retained, because her identity is otherwise lost at least to Marathi
listeners.

Madhav M. Deshpande
Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies

[Residence: Campbell, California, USA]

On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 7:12 AM John Lowe <john.lowe at orinst.ox.ac.uk> wrote:

> Thanks a lot - kṣubhnāti is close, though there is also a morphological
> break of a different sort there, I suppose. And I think there are no other
> words in that gaṇa where we are dealing with an exception to nati within a
> word, it is all (except kṣubh-nā) about words that don't have nati when in
> compound. The gaṇa as a whole appears to be a list of inexplicable
> exceptions to the general rules, but there is nothing quite like Korona.
>
> I think people adapt borrowings to the constraints of their native
> phonology. Pāṇini would have been able to pronounce it Korona with
> dental, but if the rules of Sanskrit do not allow exceptions to nati in
> monomorphemic stems, and only rarely in morphologically complex stems,
> Korona would be alien to the natural rules of Sanskrit. But perhaps with
> such an awful thing it's better to keep it alien!
>
> Are there any examples of post-Pāṇinian borrowings into Sanskrit,
> preferably unsegmentable nominal stems, where nati was not applied
> according to the regular rules?
>
> Best wishes,
> John
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Madhav Deshpande <mmdesh at umich.edu>
> *Sent:* 30 March 2020 14:12
> *To:* Christian Ferstl <christian.ferstl at univie.ac.at>
> *Cc:* John Lowe <john.lowe at orinst.ox.ac.uk>; indology <
> indology at list.indology.info>
> *Subject:* Re: [INDOLOGY] Retroflexion and gender in viruses
>
> I don't know what Pāṇini would have done, koroṇā/koronā, masculine or
> feminine.  There are exceptions to the retroflexion rules even in single
> words  [as क्षुभ्नादिषु च ८।४।३९. न इति वर्तते। क्षुभ्ना इत्येवम् आदिषु
> शब्देषु नकारस्य णकारदेशो न भवति। क्षुभ्नाति।].  In any case, importing an
> expression from a modern language into Sanskrit, one represents it as one
> hears it around.  Around me here in San Jose, I don't hear the retroflex.
> But either representation is fine with me.  In early Marathi writings, the
> name of Mountstuart Elphinstone was written as मौन्त स्त्युवर्त
> एलफिन्स्तन.  In more recent Marathi writings, I see मौंट स्टुअर्ट
> एलफिन्स्टन, and the more Apabhramsha version was known as इष्टुर फाकडा. I
> write कॅलिफोर्निया.  No retroflexion there.
>
> Madhav M. Deshpande
> Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
>
> [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
>
>
> On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 2:43 AM Christian Ferstl <
> christian.ferstl at univie.ac.at> wrote:
>
> That is, writing Sanskrit - not Hindi -  we should prefer the spelling
> कोरोणा. With the nirukti kora-ūna this would denote something even less
> or smaller than a bud, no?
>
> Regarding Bhāmaha, most of us would still prefer a grammatical error to
> a virus infection, I guess:
>
> एकः प्रतिदिनं श्लोकः कोरोणां हि निवारयेत् ।
> सुप्तिङन्तादिदोषे ऽपि शोधनीये ऽप्रयासतः ।
> इत्युक्तमवरुद्धेन स्वगृहे कविमेदिना ॥
>
> "A stanza a day keeps the virus away --
> even if there may be a grammatical error, which can easily be
> corrected."
> This was said by a friend of the kavis secluded in his own house.
>
> Just my two (and a half) cents.
> Best,
> Christian Ferstl
>
>
> Am 30.03.2020 11:02, schrieb John Lowe via INDOLOGY:
> > I don't currently have access to my books and papers, but I believe
> > for Panini the only optionality or exceptions to nati all involve
> > morphological boundaries - either nominal compounding, or preverb-verb
> > compounding.
> >
> > Are there any genuine examples of exceptions/optionality of nati not
> > involving a morphological boundary (parallel to the many exceptions to
> > ruki, like _kusuma-_)?
> >
> > If we could split Korona- into something like Kora-una-, then perhaps
> > we could have the optionality; but then again for Panini, the tendency
> > is that compounds forming names are more disposed to nati than freely
> > formed compounds, so even as a compound name we would expect the
> > retroflex, I think.
> >
> > John
> >
> > -------------------------
> >
> > From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> > Madhav Deshpande via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
> > Sent: 29 March 2020 05:22
> > To: Harry Spier <vasishtha.spier at gmail.com>
> > Cc: indology at list.indology.info <INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
> > Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Retroflexion and gender in viruses
> >
> > Dear Harry,
> >
> >      There are similar alternating usages found in Sanskrit as well
> > and authorized by Panini, for example -
> >
> > विभाषौषधिवनस्पतिभ्यः
> > ८।४।६
> >
> > काशिकावृत्ति - वनम्
> > इत्येव। ओषधिवाचि यत्
> > पूर्वपदं वनस्पतिवाचि च
> > तत्स्थान्
> > निमित्तादुत्तरस्य
> > वननकारस्य णकार आदेशो भवति
> > विभाषा। ओषधिवाचिभ्यस्
> > तावत् दूर्वावणम्,
> > दूर्वावनम्। मूर्वावणम्,
> > मूर्वावनम्। वनस्पतिभ्यः
> > शिरीषवणम्, शिरीषवनम्।
> > बदरीवणम्, बदरीवनम्।
> >
> > Madhav M. Deshpande
> > Professor Emeritus, Sanskrit and Linguistics
> > University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Michigan, USA
> > Senior Fellow, Oxford Center for Hindu Studies
> >
> > [Residence: Campbell, California, USA]
> >
> > On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 2:46 PM Harry Spier via INDOLOGY
> > <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> >
> >> Mathew Kapstein: कोरोण
> >> Others कोरोना
> >>
> >> On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 7:08 AM Matthew Kapstein via INDOLOGY
> >> <indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
> >>
> >>> With so many mahākavi-s on this list, you will have to forgive
> >>> me this silly amateurism (with Tibetan translation):
> >>>
> >>> कोरोणराक्षसं दृष्ट्वा
> >>> रामोऽकरोच्चिन्तामेव।
> >>> क्लीबमूर्खतर एष अथवा
> >>> हिंसाकोविदः॥
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> > ཀོ་རོ་ཎ་ཡི་བདུད་མཐོང་ནས།།
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> > ར་མ་ཎ་ཡིས་བསམ་བློ་བྱེད།།
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> > ཆེས་ཞན་བླུན་པོ་ཡིན་པའམ།།
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> > གནོད་པའི་ཐབས་ལ་མཁས་པ་ངེས།།
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Matthew
> >>>
> >>> Matthew Kapstein
> >>> Directeur d'études, émérite
> >>> Ecole Pratique des Hautes Etudes, Paris
> >>>
> >>> Numata Visiting Professor of Buddhist Studies,
> >>> The University of Chicago
> >>> _______________________________________________
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>
>

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