[INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change

Wed Sep 12 10:37:30 UTC 2018

Dear Samuel,

I asked repeatedly a simple question and I did not get a clear answer. The thread is there as a witness. I do not assume anything about Indian scholars and my impression from your reply is that you assume a lot about Western scholars. Nagaraj could have answered immediately by simply saying that he agrees with me, instead he produced a long series of e-mail defending Sanskrit literature, including the one with statements about the toxicity of Sanskrit which had nothing to do with the thread, but instead moved once again the topic of the thread towards the assumptions that all Western scholars are biased against Sanskrit. I am not, I assure you, and you can see it from my answers.

Now, I do not see why you are not presupposing the same about Nagaraj, that he is biased against Western scholars. It doesn’t seem fair to me that you only presuppose that I am biased only because I am a Westerner. This is what you are all thinking about, really, and not climate change. At the beginning of the thread I really asked a serious question and Dr Ruppel gave a serious answer, which was basically no, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change. I can understand that you are all weary of this thread, and so am I. I did not want to sound disrespectful, I really asked a simple question to which I received plenty of nuanced answers, but no clear-cut answer. I am sure that none of us, including Nagaraj, thinks that Sanskrit can tackle climate change, but for some mysterious reason I am the only one saying it clearly. Moreover, it was not the initiator of the thread to use the phrase, but it is the title of this article:

http://www.uniindia.com/sanskrit-can-even-tackle-climate-change-pm-modi/india/news/1331435.html

Apparently, it is the Indian PM Narendra Modi who is stating it. Therefore, please do put the whole discussion in perspective, it is not a nominalistic discussion, it is a politically important discussion, if the PM of a great democratic country such as India goes on the record saying that Sanskrit can tackle climate change, because it cannot. I am really very worried about climate change and in no moment of the discussion I wanted to disrespect Nagaraj, which is clear from the tone of my messages.

Best wishes,

Camillo

________________________________

Dr Camillo A. Formigatti
John Clay Sanskrit Librarian

Bodleian Libraries
The Weston Library
Broad Street, Oxford
OX1 3BG

Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>
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From: Geoffrey Samuel <SamuelG at cardiff.ac.uk>
Sent: 12 September 2018 11:16
To: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>; Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>; INDOLOGY (e-mail list) <INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change

Surely Nagaraj has made it quite clear that, whatever the precise wording of his sentence, he did not intend to affirm that Sanskrit can tackle climate change.

I think he has also made it clear that he does not wish to affirm categorically that Sanskrit (whatever we might mean here by Sanskrit) cannot assist in tackling climate change. That seems to me a perfectly reasonable position.

I don’t see what purpose is served by trying to insist that his words mean something other than what he clearly intends. It’s not a particularly edifying or constructive spectacle.

I think too that we should avoid assuming that all Indian scholars who criticise Western presuppositions are mindless adherents of RSS or Hindutva propaganda. The situation is more complicated and more nuanced both in India and in Western academia. Can we not be a little more respectful of each other, even when we disagree?

Geoffrey Samuel

On 12 Sep 2018, at 20:12, Nagaraj Paturi via INDOLOGY <INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>> wrote:

I don't care for this.

On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:41 PM, Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>> wrote:
As I said, I don’t care for this, I simply want a simple answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate change? Yes or no?

________________________________

Dr Camillo A. Formigatti
John Clay Sanskrit Librarian

Bodleian Libraries
The Weston Library
Broad Street, Oxford
OX1 3BG

Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>
Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208
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From: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com<mailto:nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>>
Sent: 12 September 2018 11:08
To: Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>>
Cc: Antonia Ruppel <rhododaktylos at gmail.com<mailto:rhododaktylos at gmail.com>>; Indology <INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change

In reporting speech, sentences following the sentence with 'that' conjunction , though do not contain conjunction that, often have the reported part.

Thus in

Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit

can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can

tackle climate change.

Sanskrit can tackle climate change is part of the reported part.

That it is part of the reported part is substantiated by

Dr Ruppel's

" So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. "

On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>> wrote:
Sure, but she wrote that “texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change”, not you. You wrote “In that sense, Sanskrit can
tackle climate change”, which you already agreed that it’s different than the sentence “Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change”. So, now I’m here asking you again which is which: can humankind tackle climate change or can Sanskrit tackle climate change?

It’s a simple question to which I’m asking you for a simple answer, the rest doesn’t count. So, what do you think, can Sanskrit tackle climate change?

________________________________

Dr Camillo A. Formigatti
John Clay Sanskrit Librarian

Bodleian Libraries
The Weston Library
Broad Street, Oxford
OX1 3BG

Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>
Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208
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From: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com<mailto:nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>>
Sent: 12 September 2018 10:57

To: Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>>
Cc: Antonia Ruppel <rhododaktylos at gmail.com<mailto:rhododaktylos at gmail.com>>; Indology <INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change

That is not the full sentence. The full sentence is this:

"

Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit

can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can

tackle climate change.
"

This was a paraphrasing of Dr Ruppel's

" So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change. "

The statement " I did not make a statement " Sky is blue" "

does not imply that  I made a statement " Sky is not blue"

On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:21 PM, Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>> wrote:
What about this?

“In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change.
can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.”

So, you agree with me that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change?

________________________________

Dr Camillo A. Formigatti
John Clay Sanskrit Librarian

Bodleian Libraries
The Weston Library
Broad Street, Oxford
OX1 3BG

Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>
Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208
www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk<http://www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/>

GROW YOUR MIND
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Gardens, Libraries and Museums
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From: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com<mailto:nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>>
Sent: 12 September 2018 10:49

To: Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>>
Cc: Antonia Ruppel <rhododaktylos at gmail.com<mailto:rhododaktylos at gmail.com>>; Indology <INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change

In none of the links you provided is there any sentence of mine as mentioned by you as made by me or as questioned by me.

I did not make the statement " Sanskrit can tackle climate change" .

On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:12 PM, Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>> wrote:
Dear Nagaraj,

“Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong?”

Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142992.html

“Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?”

Same message as above, from which I quote you: “In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change.

can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.”

“Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change?”

Here: http://list.indology.info/pipermail/indology_list.indology.info/2018-September/142995.html

By the way, I am not a Professor and I do not give particular importance to academic titles.

So, which is you answer to the question: can Sanskrit tackle climate change?

Best wishes,

Camillo

________________________________

Dr Camillo A. Formigatti
John Clay Sanskrit Librarian

Bodleian Libraries
The Weston Library
Broad Street, Oxford
OX1 3BG

Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>
Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208
www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk<http://www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/>

GROW YOUR MIND
in Oxford University’s
Gardens, Libraries and Museums
www.mindgrowing.org<http://www.mindgrowing.org/>

From: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com<mailto:nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>>
Sent: 12 September 2018 10:09
To: Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>>
Cc: Antonia Ruppel <rhododaktylos at gmail.com<mailto:rhododaktylos at gmail.com>>; Indology <INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>>

Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change

Where did I say you (Prof. Camillo Formigatti) is wrong?

Where did I say, " yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change?

Where did I say, " Sanskrit Literature can tackle climate change?

On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 2:31 PM, Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>> wrote:
Dear Nagaraj,

Once again, I beg to differ. I asked a clear and simple question, namely whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not, and Dr Ruppel provided her own articulated answer. I then replied saying that I understand it so that Sanskrit cannot tackle this problem, to which you replied that I was wrong and that yes, Sanskrit can tackle climate change. After some other emails, Dr Ruppel agreed with me that Sanskrit literature can only help, as many other literatures, but not tackle this problem. The thread is there for everyone to be read.

Now you say that Sanskrit literature can't tackle climate change. Which is your opinion? It's a simple question, to which I can give my simple answer, no it can't. I don't understand why you can't. I didn't ask whether Sanskrit literature contains passages which advocate respect for nature. Sure it does, again as most other literatures, even in the ancient world.

Best wishes,

Camillo

Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone

---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ----
Thanks, Prof. Camillo Formigatti , for agreeing that Sanskrit , like any language is not toxic.

Yes, I am equally worried about climate change.

Speaking Sanskrit can not tackle climate change.

Using Sanskrit for any other form of communication such as writing in it can not tackle climate change.

After diagnosing the roots of the Ecological Crisis in the 'modern' attitude of dominating or controlling nature (I need not quote any specific book or article here because there are plenty of them) and in the Christian attitude ( Lynn White's well discussed/debated famous/notorious article " Historical Roots of the Ecological Crisis) people turned towards traditional cultures from various places, countries etc. Many arrived at the conclusion that cultural diversity is key to biodiversity which is key to environmental health of the Earth. That India has been pro-diversity from millennia can not be disputed. It has been the opposite of the uniformity imposing messianic cultures. That literature in Sanskrit articulates the worldview contributing to the age old diversity in India is the point. In addition, Texts such as the Gita in Sanskrit have a very clear articulation of nature friendly attitude and following eco-cycle etc. as shown in my early post in the present thread. Of course, this kind of ideas can be found in some other texts in some other languages too. But this forum is not a forum of Egyptology to discuss similar ideas in ancient Egypt if there are any. Since  discussing Sanskrit is within the scope of the list, we are doing it here.

I did not make a statement that Sanskrit can tackle climate change anywhere in the thread.

When Prof. Ruppel said that in a certain specific sense, phrasing by the thread initiator can be justified, I agreed with her and said that I would have said the same.

This book <https://books.google.co.in/books/about/Technology_and_Human_Destiny.html?id=9bbQAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y>  and Myths of Science and Technology by the Mc Cormac by the same publisher discuss use of Indian worldview for a solution to ecological crisis.

On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 12:10 AM, Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>> wrote:
Dear Nagaraj,

I'm not interested to know about the supposed toxicity of Sanskrit, as I don't think any language can be toxic.

I am interested in the answer to the question whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change or not, because I'm really very worried about climate change. First you said it can, quoting Dr Ruppel to sustain your argument, and now you say that the sentence "Sanskrit can tackle climate change" cannot be used in a meaningful way. Does this mean then that Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change? I confess I'm really confused now.

Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone

---- Nagaraj Paturi wrote ----

That was the phrasing by the thread initiator.

Prof. Antonia Ruppel tried to give sense to it.

It can not be meaningfully be used only as much as statements such as "Sanskrit is toxic" or phrases such as  "toxicity of Sanskrit can not be.

On Tue, Sep 11, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Antonia Ruppel <rhododaktylos at gmail.com<mailto:rhododaktylos at gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear Camillo,

> Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained
> therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong.

Yes, I agree fully, Sanskrit (literature and the ideas contained therein) can help tackle, and not directly tackle, issues such as climate change ni which a larger perspective is useful.

To make it clear, in spite of the context I tried to give in my initial mail (which I still think is the aspect we *should* be focussing on to make this debate fruitful!), I do NOT think that the sentence

'Sanskrit can tackle climate change'

can meaningfully be used as phrased.

All the best,
   Antonia

On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:27, Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>> wrote:
Still, Sanskrit can only help tackle, and not directly tackle climate change. Or am I wrong and 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' can tackle climate change? I thought only mankind can tackle it directly, but you are telling me I'm wrong.

Sent from my Xperia by Sony smartphone

---- Antonia Ruppel wrote ----
In isolation, the sentence

'Sanskrit can tackle climate change'

is like the sentence

'Doctors named Brian can prescribe antibiotics'

The latter makes it sound as though it was something about specifically doctors of this name that could do this, rather than just doctors in general. The former makes it sound as though this was a property specifically of Sanskrit, whereas it is a property of all literary cultures - and I pointed out that by 'Sanskrit', we can only mean 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein' rather than the Sanskrit language.

In Indian English, I often hear 'Sanskrit' used to mean exactly 'Sanskrit literature and the ideas contained therein'. It would be more helpful to reserve a term like Sanskriti for this even in English, and use Sanskrit  (< saMskRt*a*-), for just the language. Otherwise it sounds as though we, either mistakenly or intentionally, assign properties to the Sanskrit language that it, as beautiful as it is, does not have.

All the best,
    Antonia

On Tue, 11 Sep 2018 at 18:08, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Dear Nagaraj,

I beg to differ. I quote from Dr Ruppel’s answer:
“What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. […] Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.” [emphasis mine]
Bottom line, Sanskrit as a language cannot help us with climate change and some ideas expressed in Sanskrit literature, as well as in “many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world”, can help humankind in tackling climate change. This means that Sanskrit itself and not even Sanskrit literature can tackle climate change, as much as Henry David Thoreau’s books cannot either, because “[w]hat is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect”, and not simply read Sanskrit texts.
Again, am I wrong in this interpretation?
Best wishes,

Camillo

________________________________

Dr Camillo A. Formigatti
John Clay Sanskrit Librarian

Bodleian Libraries
The Weston Library
Broad Street, Oxford
OX1 3BG

Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>
Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208
www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk<http://www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/>

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From: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com<mailto:nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>>
Sent: 11 September 2018 17:23
To: Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>>
Cc: Indology <INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change

Prof. Antonia Ruppel -ji was very clear in saying that texts in Sanskrit can help human kind to tackle climate change. In that sense, Sanskrit can tackle climate change.

can not ' was not used by her alongside Sanskrit.

On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 9:45 PM Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Dear Colleagues,

Many thanks, you have provided an answer to my question. Basically, Sanskrit cannot tackle climate change, only humankind can. Or have I misunderstood something?

Best wishes,

Camillo

________________________________

Dr Camillo A. Formigatti
John Clay Sanskrit Librarian

Bodleian Libraries
The Weston Library
Broad Street, Oxford
OX1 3BG

Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>
Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208
www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk<http://www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/>

GROW YOUR MIND
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Gardens, Libraries and Museums
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From: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com<mailto:nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>>
Sent: 10 September 2018 19:09
To: Antonia Ruppel <rhododaktylos at gmail.com<mailto:rhododaktylos at gmail.com>>
Cc: Camillo Formigatti <camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>>; Jonathan Silk <kauzeya at gmail.com<mailto:kauzeya at gmail.com>>; Indology <INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change

Thanks, Prof. Antonia Ruppel.

We have an expression in Hindi, आप मेरी मुह की बात छीन ली । You snatched words words from my mouth. meaning you said what I wanted to say.

You articulated it better than I would have.

Thanks,

Regards,

On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Antonia Ruppel <rhododaktylos at gmail.com<mailto:rhododaktylos at gmail.com>> wrote:
Dear Camillo, dear all,

What I find most striking in these debates is the lack of definition/understanding of what people mean when they say 'Sanskrit'. The author of the article at the basis of this thread does not seem to have had a good idea of what they or the speakers they talk about were thinking of; as Nagaraj pointed out further down in this thread, Sanskrit *literature* contains numerous passages that might be relevant in the climate change debate.

What is needed to tackle climate change is for people to live moderately and treat their environment (human and non-human) with respect, and for companies to do that even more so. What also is needed is research that leads to understanding of what the factors are that are the most damaging to the environment.

Sanskrit - the language - cannot help us with that. Sanskrit literature, and many other literatures and literary cultures all over the world, present us with us with centuries and sometimes even millennia of careful thoughts on how to live happily without greed and with respect for others. There are many texts that furthermore encourage careful inquiry, i.e. the kind that is the necessary basis of climatological research. As such, knowledge of (some of) the thoughts presented to us by Sanskrit literature can indeed help us with climate change, as it can with many other aspects of our modern lives.

So, understood in this very specific way, yes, Sanskrit can help us tackle climate change.

But to phrase it in this stand-alone way is misleading: knowledge of the thoughts people have thought in the past, of the ways in which people in the past have dealt with very human problems, and of the ways in which those problems actually remain very relevant today: this is what helps us deal with climate change (among other things).

So up with Sanskrit scholarship, up with ALL the humanities! We just need to make this point more clearly and probably more repeatedly; maybe then they'll stop cutting our funding.

All the best,
      Antonia

On Mon, 10 Sep 2018 at 17:12, Camillo Formigatti via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info<mailto:indology at list.indology.info>> wrote:
Dear Nagaraj and colleagues,

I followed with great interest this discussion, but I still can’t decide whether Sanskrit can tackle climate change for real or not.

What do you all think? Because if this is true, we should all plead for the use of Sanskrit to stop one of the greatest challenges for humankind and many other living beings.

Best wishes,

Cammillo

________________________________

Dr Camillo A. Formigatti
John Clay Sanskrit Librarian

Bodleian Libraries
The Weston Library
Broad Street, Oxford
OX1 3BG

Email: camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk<mailto:camillo.formigatti at bodleian.ox.ac.uk>
Tel. (office): 01865 (2)77208
www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk<http://www.bodleian.ox.ac.uk/>

GROW YOUR MIND
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Gardens, Libraries and Museums
www.mindgrowing.org<http://www.mindgrowing.org/>

From: Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com<mailto:nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>>
Sent: 10 September 2018 12:04
To: Jonathan Silk <kauzeya at gmail.com<mailto:kauzeya at gmail.com>>
Cc: George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com<mailto:gthomgt at gmail.com>>; Indology <INDOLOGY at list.indology.info<mailto:INDOLOGY at list.indology.info>>
Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] Sanskrit can tackle climate change

>  I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology.

-- If you defend German Indology because you are German, there is no anauchitya in it. You might be saying this to say that your statement German Indology is a good Indology is not a subjective or biased statement but an objective and unbiased one. that intention is well taken. But at the same time, reacting or responding to statements about our respective countries/nations as members of those nations has no anouchitya.

Trying to appear as though we have overcame our love for our own individual prestige, prestige of our family, prestige of our educational institute of our affiliation, nation of our origin, nation of our current belonging etc. is unnecessary.

Expressions such as का ते कांता?  कस्ते पुत्रः ? suit a संन्यासी, a renounced ascetic , not a संसारी  , a family person. Within the reference frame of  संसारी ,  expressions such as का ते कांता?  कस्ते पुत्रः ? are not only anauchitya but even infidelity and treachery to that system. In Telugu there is an idiom meaning "dry Vedanta" used in reference to such usages of extreme level ascetic Vedanta used by family people with mundane interests.

-----------------------------

Coming to the word German Indology, I must confess that my understanding of -logy of -logy in the case of Indology is not adavanced enough to distinctly identify German Indology from other strands of Indology. Prof.s Vishwa Adluri and Joydeep Bagchee even talk of German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries as their focus. That is too much of a minute nuance to my level of understanding. Some time ago, some people asked me to respond to their posts and responses to their posts. I responded to them saying that the issues such as antisemitism in German Indology (of 18th and 19th centuries) etc. raised by them are not studied by me so well.

Later, a few months ago, I got the opportunity to meet the two professors in India. That was their talk on Mahabharata. They were doing a poorvapaksha of the view that Mahabharata is full of self-contradictions etc.

---------------------------------

Antisemitism might look to be straw man used by the critiques of early or old German Indology to malign it using the Hitler, Nazis, genocide etc.

But 'Hinduism' and Indian nationalism have been greater victims of this straw man based on Hitler, Nazis and genocide because the symbol of swastika associated with 'Hinduism' and the word nationalism in Indian nationalism are repeatedly invoked to stereotype 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc. The word German Indology is not popular beyond the readers of the publications of Profs Adluri and Bagchee. But the  repeated invoking of stereotypes of 'Hinduism', Indian nationalism etc. as fascist, Nazi-like, genocidal in tendency etc  is found almost everywhere including popular political discourse. Connection of German Indology with antisemitism may at least give an impression of being reasonable. But why Hinduism should be bad because Hitler used its sacred symbol or why Indian nationalism should be bad because Hitler and Nazis were 'nationalists' or because they used the unscientific racist term 'Aryan', is beyond the comprehension of any reasonable understanding.

------------------------------

Those knowledgeable in German Indology of 18th and 19th centuries and its connection or lack of it with antisemitism might discuss with Prof.s Adluri and Bagchee.

-------------------------------

I for one, am not in a reference frame of  का ते कांता?  कस्ते पुत्रः ? or what your nation? , what my nation ? not to respond when I see that misrepresentation of Sanskrit, India and Indian culture is being done particularly by those who are viewed in India as those who chose  Sanskrit, India and Indian culture  as their subject matter out of love and respect for that subject matter.

On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jonathan Silk <kauzeya at gmail.com<mailto:kauzeya at gmail.com>> wrote:
I am sorry if I was unclear: mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint (please do not assume that because I use that term I think "there are always two sides to any issue" or make any other assumptions about my position or motivation)--mine was not a plea to allow a certain viewpoint; it was a plea NOT to introduce Trump into the Indology list, and to introduce Modi only insofar as his policies directly relate to Indology (Skt, Tamil, etc).
I may well be astonishingly naive, that obviously is something of which I would be the least qualified judge. And astonishment is naturally an entirely subjective experience, so you are welcome to it. But please please let us keep politics off this list. [Again, simply to make overly clear: this does NOT mean that I think discussion of the theories concerning the MBh propounded by whomever are not fair game. Certainly they are, but just because, for instance, the authors of those theories engage in ad hominem attacks does not mean that the proper response is to respond in kind. "Racist" anything stands or falls on its own merits. [this is a different, although not entirely different, perhaps, issue than whether we should acknowledge and take into account the work of persons whose history is absolutely clear -- eg the studies of Wust, or I would venture to say, although foreign to most of the readers of the Indology list, the research of Miyamoto Shoson, who was an incredible Japanese imperialist--one of his prefaces celebrates the day the Imperial Japanese army entered India, the land of the Buddha's birth. This, to be as polite as possible, turns my stomach, but that does not solve the question whether I should, therefore, stop reading his book at the preface. [you might, all of you, take solace in the fact that this proves that at least one person reads prefaces!]]] (sorry, lost count of my embedded brackets!)
Anyway, back to the point (there was one): I am far from the first person to notice that it hardly makes any sense at all to speak of "German" Indology in the first place, but whatever attacks are made against one approach or another, whether the nature of those attacks makes any sense is not to be determined by the motivation of the attacker. Let's sift the wheat from the chaff, and perhaps, after all, some ideas, even if published as scholarship, are not really worthwhile rebutting at all.

Hoping earnestly that I have clarified my ideas, as poor and unhelpful as they may be,

Jonathan

On Mon, Sep 10, 2018 at 12:40 AM, George Thompson <gthomgt at gmail.com<mailto:gthomgt at gmail.com>> wrote:
re JOYDEEP

As long as you all allow this hindutva racist to post to this list, mr joydeep, who has regularly attacked "German Indology" over the years, then I will fight with you.  I don't defend "German Indology" because I am German. I defend it because German Indology has been good Indology. Joydeep's Indology is a racist Indology.  I think that Jonathan and Nagaraj are astonishingly naïve when it comes to Joydeep's ideology.  Have they read Joydeep's papers?

Shame on you both!  Please read some of  Joydeep's papers, and then get back in touch with the rest of us.

best wishes,

George Thompson

--
J. Silk
Leiden University
Leiden University Institute for Area Studies, LIAS
Matthias de Vrieshof 3<https://maps.google.com/?q=Matthias+de+Vrieshof+3&entry=gmail&source=g>, Room 0.05b
2311 BZ Leiden
The Netherlands

copies of my publications may be found at
https://leidenuniv.academia.edu/JASilk

--
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

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--
Dr Antonia Ruppel
www.cambridge-sanskrit.org<http://www.cambridge-sanskrit.org/>

--
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

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--
Dr Antonia Ruppel
www.cambridge-sanskrit.org<http://www.cambridge-sanskrit.org/>

--
Dr Antonia Ruppel
www.cambridge-sanskrit.org<http://www.cambridge-sanskrit.org/>

--
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

--
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

--
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

...

[Message clipped]

--
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

--
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

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