[INDOLOGY] Gita 13.6

Sat Aug 26 04:17:00 UTC 2017

There is yet another classification in Bh G:

Two Purushas classification.

द्वाविमौ पुरुषौ लोके क्षरश्चाक्षर एव च ।

क्षरः सर्वाणि भूतानि कूटस्थो।अक्षर उच्यते ॥ 15\-16॥

In creation, there are two Purushas. 1. Kshara = perishable ; 2. akshara =
imperishable

The portion made up of all the creatures (living and non-living ) is called
the Kshara Purusha; The *locus mundi * of all the creatures is called the
Akshara Purusha.

The second one, the location of all the creatures,  is only inferred from
the existence of the creatures. All the creatures are Vyakta. Their *l**ocus
mundi *is avyakta.

*---------------------------------------------------------------------------------*

In modern times, (particularly in Physics and Chemistry or Physical
Sciences), Creation is divided into Matter and Energy.

Matter is manifest. Energy is unmanifest while its effects are manifest.
To use the Bh G terms , we can say, Matter is vyakta. Energy is avyakta
while its effects are vyakta.

BhG's vyakta-avyakta classification of creation is similar to but not the
same as this.

On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 9:10 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
wrote:

> Correction;
>
> Prakriti and Purusha; as in saankhya dars'ana, this is the
> dynamised/dynamisable and dynamising aspects of creation
>
> not
>
> Prakriti and Purusha; as in saankhya dars'ana, this is the
> dynamised/dynamising and dynamising aspects of creation
>
> On Sat, Aug 26, 2017 at 12:37 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> > My question essentially is: what exactly is the unmanifest aspect of
>> the creation?
>>
>> Dear HR-ji,
>>
>> Sorry for not being able to get back to you earlier than this.
>>
>> Answering questions such as "what exactly is the unmanifest aspect of the
>> creation?" in a modern context is a little tricky.
>>
>> We need to be careful not to hastily read the concepts of modern sciences
>> into these expressions/ideas of a different space and time; at the same
>> time, it may seem easy to take help of some modern understandings as
>> analogies, equivalents or modern parlance for these ideas of that space and
>> time.
>>
>> As an analogy, let us take the example of forms of energy such as heat.
>> Heat energy is inferred through its effects but is not directly cognised.
>> Its effects are vyakta (manifest) but it itself is avyakta (unmanifest).
>>
>> There are other classifications of creation in Gita:
>>
>> Prakriti and Purusha; as in saankhya dars'ana, this is the
>> dynamised/dynamising and dynamising aspects of creation. For example, the
>> body of a living organism that gets left as a corpse after its 'death', is
>> Prakriti aspect of nature.  The 'life' that kept it 'alive' while it was
>> 'living' is an example for Purusha aspect of nature. The 'life' itself is
>> avyakta (unmanifest). Its existence is inferred from the cognisable 'vital'
>> functions of the organism.
>>
>> This idea of Purusha is taken to a viraaT ('cosmic') level as in Purusha
>> sUkta.
>>
>> The self-regulated and self-sustained nature of the cosmos makes it to be
>> perceived as 'living' /as organism. This view is what is reflected in
>> Purusha Sukta. But its 'life' , like the life of a living organism is
>> inferred from its self-regulated, self-sustained,l functions and existence.
>> This 'life' of it is avyakta.
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 9:44 PM, Shyam Ranganathan via INDOLOGY <
>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Howard, and all
>>>
>>> My two cents: Yoga/Bhakti is a procedural theory of ethics. Procedural
>>> theories prioritize the right (action, procedure, means) over the good
>>> (outcome, end, manifest thing).  The most procedural theory we have in the
>>> Western tradition is what the Gita calls "Karma Yoga," ---deontology.
>>> According to this there are good things to do (duties) and they are
>>> justified by way of procedural considerations, not the ends.
>>>
>>> Yoga/Bhakti in contrast defines the thing to be done by a procedural
>>> ideal---the Lord---and the good as the perfection of this practice. Hence,
>>> we shouldn't strive for the good, nor should we justify actions by their
>>> outcomes. We should rather understand proper action as an approximation to
>>> the Lord which defines the right, and the good automatically follows as a
>>> perfection of this practice.  In effect, we instantiate Lordliness as we
>>> perfect the practice of devotion to the Lord.
>>>
>>> As the Lord is a procedural ideal, that is only manifest when we make
>>> perfect our devotion to it, it is in abstraction always unmanifest. But it
>>> can also become manifest too as a matter of its expression in a world
>>> devoted to It.
>>> I have written about this in a few articles of late. Here's one:
>>>
>>> "Bhagavad Gītā: The Dialectic of Four Moral Theories
>>> <https://philpapers.org/rec/SHYBGT>"
>>>
>>> Related to this, and more specifically on Yoga/Bhakti, is:
>>>
>>> "Patañjali’s Yoga: Universal Ethics as the Formal Cause of Autonomy
>>> <https://philpapers.org/rec/RANPYU-2>"
>>>
>>> Hope this helps,  and best wishes,
>>> Shyam
>>>
>>> Shyam Ranganathan
>>> Department of Philosophy
>>> York University, Toronto
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 24/08/2017 11:50 AM, HR via INDOLOGY wrote:
>>>
>>> Thank you Naturaj-ji.
>>>
>>> My question essentially is: what exactly is the unmanifest aspect of the
>>> creation?
>>>
>>>
>>> On Aug 24, 2017, at 3:53 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Dear HR-ji,
>>>
>>> If your question is, " Are the 'Avyakta' of 13.6 and 'Avyakta' of  8.18.
>>> one and the same?",
>>>
>>> then the answer is 'No' and 'Yes'
>>>
>>> No, because the 'avyakta' of 13.6 is the unmanifest aspect /element of
>>> the creation during the vyakta phase of the creation.
>>>
>>> Whereas the  'avyakta' in 8.18 is the avyakta phase of the creation.
>>>
>>> Yes, because in 8.18 too 'avyakta is an aspect/dimension. In the avyakta
>>> phase, only avyakta aspect/dimension remains. All elements like Mahabhutani
>>> of 13.6, which exist in a vyakta aspect/dimension of them in the vyakta
>>> phase , change into their avyakta aspect/dimension during the avyakta phase.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 8:47 AM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>> Dear HR-ji,
>>>>
>>>> The two axiomatic principles of Bh G (Bh G time 'Hinduism' ) are :
>>>>
>>>> nāsatō vidyatē bhāvah nābhāvō vidyatē satah. Bh G 2-16 (Existence does
>>>> not come from non-existence and from existence non-existence does not come;
>>>> i.e.,Nothing is created from nothing. Everything is created from something
>>>> already in existence..Anything already in existence does not get destroyed)
>>>>
>>>> and
>>>>
>>>> (in fact as a corollary of this),
>>>>
>>>> Time/creation is cyclic.
>>>>
>>>> Based on these two , all the vyakta does not get destroyed at the end
>>>> of a creation /time cycle. Then what happens to the vyakta at that stage?
>>>> It withdraws into its avyakta form (because nābhāvō vidyatē satah) . What
>>>> happens later? The new cycle of time/creation begins. What does that mean?
>>>> All that is withdrawn into avyakta comes back into vyakta form. (because
>>>> nāsatō vidyatē bhāvah)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 24, 2017 at 4:26 AM, HR via INDOLOGY <
>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thank you, Nagaraj. I am still trying to grasp more clearly the sense
>>>>> of avyakta in verses like 8.18 —
>>>>> avyaktād vyaktayah sarvāḥ prabhavanty ahar-āgame
>>>>>
>>>>> How would you define the avyakta as the source of manifest individuals
>>>>> (vyaktayaḥ)?
>>>>>
>>>>> Howard
>>>>>
>>>>> On Aug 22, 2017, at 7:17 PM, Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear HR-ji,
>>>>>
>>>>> noun not adjective.
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, that is what I was about to point out.
>>>>>
>>>>> In 13.6, it is a part of categories into which the "knowable field" as
>>>>> opposed to the "field - knower"  is  divided.
>>>>>
>>>>> महाभूतान्यहन्कारो बुद्धिरव्यक्तमेव च ।
>>>>> इन्द्रियाणि दशैकन् च प~न्च चेन्द्रियगोचराः ॥ 13\-6॥
>>>>>
>>>>> Similar is its use in 8-18, 8-20
>>>>>
>>>>> अव्यक्ताद् व्यक्तयः सर्वाः प्रभवन्त्यहरागमे ।
>>>>>
>>>>> रात्र्यागमे प्रलीयन्ते तत्रैवाव्यक्तसन्घके ॥ 8\-18॥
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> परस्तस्मात्तु भावो अन्यो अव्यक्तो अव्यक्तात्सनातनः ।
>>>>>
>>>>> यः स सर्वेषु भूतेषु नश्यत्सु न विनश्यति ॥ 8\-20॥
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The words element and dimension used by you are very apt.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Interestingly it is both a dimension and element.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Just for analogy, space and time in contemporary Physics are both
>>>>> dimensions and components. (Post Einstein, they are components of a
>>>>> continuum.)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> mahābhūtāni, indriyagoocarāh are part of the vyakta component.
>>>>> ahankārah, buddhih, indriyāṇi are parts of neither parts of the vyakta nor
>>>>> of the avykta.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This vyakta, avyakta division has its foundations right from the
>>>>> rigvedic expressions such as
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> pādōsya viśvābhūtāni tripādasyāmr̥tam divi.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> vēdāhamētam puruśam mahāntam ādityavarṇam tamasah parastāt.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Aug 23, 2017 at 6:38 AM, HR via INDOLOGY <
>>>>> indology at list.indology.info> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Thank you. Actually, avyakta is often used as a straightforward
>>>>>> adjective, as in Bg 2.25. My interest here is when avyakta is used as a
>>>>>> noun, as in Bg 12.1, or even more to the point, 8.18,20.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Howard
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Aug 22, 2017, at 4:52 AM, alakendu das <
>>>>>> mailmealakendudas at rediffmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Scholar,
>>>>>>                  The best way to comprehend Avykta or "The
>>>>>> unmanifested"is available in Gita itself.2.26(or may be 27,)says- A
>>>>>> chheddyam,Adahhyam,Akleddya,Ashoshya eba cha ,Nitya Sarvagata Sthanu
>>>>>> Chalayam ,Sanatana
>>>>>> ........Avyaktayam,Achintyam,Avikaryam ucchyate.The concept of
>>>>>> Avyakta in our Philosophy is dimensionless,although it
>>>>>> is the sole EXISTENCE. The fact that it is dimensionless, can be
>>>>>> accessed from this Upanishadic qoute- Ananu,Asthulam,Arhasham,A
>>>>>> ..dirgham....etc.," Avyaktam' is the Sumnum Bonum of our Vedanta
>>>>>> Philosophy.
>>>>>>                      Alakendu Ds
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sent from RediffmailNG on Android
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: HR via INDOLOGY <indology at list.indology.info>
>>>>>> Sent: Tue, 22 Aug 2017 08:23:45 GMT+0530
>>>>>> To: Indology List <indology at list.indology.info>
>>>>>> Subject: [INDOLOGY] Gita 13.6
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Scholars,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    I would appreciate insights on how we might understand the use of
>>>>>> ‘avyakta,’ the ‘unmanifest’ in the Gita 13.6 and elsewhere as a type of
>>>>>> element or dimension of this world.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>> Howard
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>>> committee)
>>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list
>>>>>> options or unsubscribe)
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>>
>>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>>>
>>>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>>>
>>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>>
>>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>>
>>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>>>> committee)
>>>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>>
>>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>>
>>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>>
>>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>>
>>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>>
>>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>>
>>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>>
>>>
>>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>>
>>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>>
>>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>>
>>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>>
>>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing listINDOLOGY at list.indology.infoindology-owner@list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing committee)http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Shyam Ranganathan
>>>
>>> MA,MA, PhD
>>>
>>> Department of Philosophy
>>>
>>> York University, Toronto
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> shyam-ranganathan.info  <http://shyam-ranganathan.info/>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *The Bloomsbury Research Handbook of Indian Ethics
>>> <http://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/the-bloomsbury-research-handbook-of-indian-ethics-9781472587770/>*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Patañjali`s Yoga Sūtras
>>> <http://penguin.co.in/book/classics/patanjalis-yoga-sutra/>* (Translation,
>>> Edition and Commentary)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *Translating Evaluative Discourse: The Semantics of Thick and Thin
>>> Concepts <https://philpapers.org/rec/SHYTED>*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Full List, Publications <https://philpapers.org/s/shyam%20ranganathan>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> INDOLOGY mailing list
>>> INDOLOGY at list.indology.info
>>> indology-owner at list.indology.info (messages to the list's managing
>>> committee)
>>> http://listinfo.indology.info (where you can change your list options
>>> or unsubscribe)
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Nagaraj Paturi
>>
>> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>>
>>
>> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>>
>> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>>
>> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>>
>> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>>
>> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
>
> BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra
>
> BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )
>
>
>
>

-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

BoS, MIT School of Vedic Sciences, Pune, Maharashtra

BoS, Chinmaya Vishwavidyapeeth, Veliyanad, Kerala

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

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