[INDOLOGY] Jati as Caste in Nyaya?

Mon Jun 20 19:38:56 UTC 2016

The latter.
Best wishes, Eli

Zitat von Nagaraj Paturi <nagarajpaturi at gmail.com>:

>> Jitari has written a short treatise on this subject called dvijAtidUSaNa
>
> ----- Does this treatise deal with the jaatitva of brahmaNatva as per
> Nyaya, Mimamsa or Vyakarana darsanas?
>
> or the question of  whether the *jāti* of Brahmins, etc. is like the *jāti*
> of cow-ness, etc. in being empirically observable or directly perceivable ?
>
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Franco <franco at uni-leipzig.de> wrote:
>
>> Jitari has written a short treatise on this subject called dvijAtidUSaNa.
>> It is not yet edited, but I have a preliminary transcription of it. If
>> anyone is interested, please contact me off the list.
>> Best wishes,
>> Eli
>>
>>
>> Sent from my iPad
>>
>> On 19 Jun 2016, at 16:11, Christophe Vielle <
>> christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be> wrote:
>>
>> See also the presentation of the problem of* j**ā**ti* in the *meya*
>> portion of the *Mānameyodaya* (2, 3 = *j**ā**ti*, 1-18)
>>
>> Kunhan Raja C.  & Suryanarayana Sastri S. S. 21975, *Mānameyodaya of
>> Nārāyaṇa B**haṭṭa and Nārāyaṇa Paṇḍita (an elementary treatise on the
>> Mīmāṃsā)*, Madras, Adyar Library Series 105,  pp. 233-244.
>> • p. 243 (17 - Bhāṭṭa conclusion):  "Thus is established 'Brahminness'.
>> What apprehends it is the sense of sight itself assisted by the
>> understanding of his being born of a Brahmin father and mother, whose
>> Brahminness is not corrupted; hence it is not non-perceptible either"
>>
>> Cf. also (recognized as one of the main sources of the *Mānameyodaya*)
>> the earlier Nītitattvāvirbhāva of Cidānanda (cf. éd. P. K. Narayana
>> Pillai 1953, *Nītitattvāvirbhāva of Cidānandapaṇḍita*, Trivandrum, TSS
>> 168 ; cf. republ. in K. T. Pandurangi 2008, *Cidānanda-paṇḍita-viracitaḥ,
>> Nītitattvāvirbhāvaḥ, Mīmāṃsābhāṣyapariśiṣṭena Tantrarahasyena ca sahitaḥ*,
>> Bangalore), the 20th topic of which is *Jātinirṇaya*, apparently more
>> directed against the Buddhist views, without dealing with the problem of
>> Brahminhood (abstract in Pandurangi 2008 pp. xvii-viii, EIPh 16, p.
>> 114-15).
>>
>> I did not go into the provided Śālikanātha's text in details (and did not
>> start to search into Prabhâkara's own commentatorial works where the
>> original statements could be found), but from secondary sources, it
>> appears that Bhāṭṭas and Prābhākaras differ here in the explanation. For
>> both *j**ā**ti *is a perceptible category, but the relation of   
>> *j**ā**ti* with
>> individual is given as a combination of difference and non-difference for
>> the former, whereas it is difference for the latter, according to whom the
>> apposition (individual - universal) is through inherence. Prābhākaras
>> admit the existence of genus/class of substance, but refuse to accept the
>> existence of genus of quality and action.
>> And according to Prābhākaras, differently from the case of cowness,
>> Brahminhood or Kṣatriyahood are not considered as real *j**ā**ti*:
>>
>> • MM p. 239 (- 9): "Although the genus is thus established, the Guru
>> [Prabhâkara] says that, since its cognition is invariably controlled by the
>> knowledge of the earlier form, existence, soundness, Brahminness, etc.
>> which have not that knowledge are non-existent".
>>
>> So the debate referred to could be internal to Mimamsakas rather than
>> between Mimamsakas and Buddhists.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Christophe
>>
>> Le 17 juin 2016 à 20:00, John Taber <jataber at unm.edu> a écrit :
>>
>> Dear Don et al.,
>>
>> Since Christophe brought up Mīmāṃsā: the relevant passage in Kumārila is *
>> Tantravārttika* ad MS 1.2.2. This is interpreted by Halbfass in the
>> chapter of *Tradition and Reflection* mentioned by Sam Wright. (I look
>> forward to reading his forthcoming article in JIP.)
>>
>> The issue for Kumārila is mainly the perceptibility of universals, as H.
>> explains. The varṇas pose a sort of test case. It's not at all clear that
>> one can just SEE that someone is a brahmin. K. argues that, even though
>> various factors may be required to stimulate perception of a universal - in
>> the case of Brahminhood, for instance, being told the person's lineage - it
>> is perceptible nonetheless. Cf. Ślokavārttika Vanavāda 26-29, where the
>> problem is discussed in more general terms; other problematic cases are
>> mentioned there (e.g., how does one perceive gheeness in melted ghee? - by
>> smelling or tasting it!). Some universals may be more difficult to perceive
>> than others, but even if one has to climb to the top of a mountain in order
>> to see something (presumably something very far away), that does not make
>> it not perceptible (na hi yad giriśṛṅgam āruhya gṛhyate tad apratyakṣam, TV
>> 1.2.2).
>>
>> There may be certain cultural prejudices in the background of Kumārila's
>> discussion (here I'm thinking of what Dominik wrote and some of the things
>> Halbfass says: Brahminhood is *determined* by a universal, not by
>> conduct; it is *inherent* in someone; there's certainly no social
>> mobility here!), but ultimately I think he is concerned to defend the
>> notion that real (eternal) universals, which are perceptible, as opposed to
>> the pseudo-universals of the Buddhists (apohas), are the meanings of words.
>> Since the universal cowness is perceptible, we can SEE that that is the
>> meaning of the word "cow" when someone points to a cow and says, "That is
>> called a cow." Otherwise, it is not clear how the connected between word
>> and meaning could ever be established.
>>
>> Cheers again,
>> JT
>>
>>
>> On Jun 17, 2016, at 7:08 AM, Christophe Vielle <
>> christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Don,
>>
>> The problem is also epistemologically discussed by the
>> Prabhakara-mimamsaka Śālikanātha in the *Prakaraṇapañcikā*, *prakaraṇa* 4
>> : *Jātinirṇaya*
>>
>>  See short abstract of this chapter in
>>
>> Potter K. H. éd. 2014, *Philosophy of Pūrva-**Mīmāṃsā*, Delhi,
>> Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies 16, pp. 308-309 (relying on Verpoorten
>> and Pandurangi)
>>
>> The 1961 Benares edition of the PP is available here :
>>
>> http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/383225
>>
>> (better scan than :
>>
>> http://www.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/541509
>>
>> http://www.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/311115  )
>>
>> Here below an extract of the Sansknet input on GRETIL
>>
>>
>> http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil/1_sanskr/6_sastra/3_phil/mimamsa/prakp04u.htm
>>
>>
>> (…)
>>
>> tad idam apahastitam, yad āhuḥ
>>
>> "śabdatvam eva tattadasādhāraṇābhivyañjakadhvaninibandhanatayā
>> nānāvarṇapeṇa viṣayībhavat tasya tasyārthasyāvagamāya kalpata" iti /
>>
>> *brāhmaṇatvādijāti*nirākaraṇam /
>>
>> anayaiva ca diśā brāhmaṇatvādijātir api nivāritā /
>>
>> nahi nānāstrīpuruṣavyaktiṣu
>> puruṣatvādarthāntarabhūtamekamākāramātmasātkurvāntī matirāvirbhavati /
>>
>> nahi kṣatriyādibhyo vyāvartamānaṃ
>> sakalabrāhmaṇeṣvanuvartamānamekamākāramaticiramanusandadhato 'pi budhyante /
>>
>> yadapyāhuḥ- yadyapyāpātasaṃjātayā dhiyā brāhmaṇyaṃ nāvasīyate, tathāpi
>> brāhmaṇabhūtamātāpitṛsambandhānusandhānaprabhavāyāṃ banddhau taccakāstīti /
>>
>> tadapi ca svamānasavisaṃvādi /
>>
>> anusandadhāno 'pi mātāpitṛsambandhaṃ ko jātvekamākāramavaboddhuṃ
>> prabhavati /
>>
>> yaccopadarśitam---yathā vilīnamājyaṃ tailādavyatiricyamānaṃ
>> gandhagrahaṇasahakāriṇā cakṣuṣaiva bhinnamavagamtaya---iti /
>>
>> tadapi na sundaram /
>>
>> nahi tadānīṃ cākṣuṣasya saṃvedanasya viṣayātirekaḥ, kintvanumānameva tatra
>> sarpiṣaḥ /
>>
>> yastu nipuṇadarśo sūkṣmamapi rūpamīkṣituṃ kṣamaḥ, sa cakṣuṣaivājyajātimapi
>> pratyeti, na gandhagrahaṇamapekṣate /
>>
>> nanvevaṃ bahvavahīnam, kiṃnibandhano hi tadānīmāhavanīyādisādhyakarmasu
>> keṣāñcidadhikāro nānyeṣām; kiṃnibandhanā ca *brāhmaṇaśabda*sya
>> pravṛttivyavasthā iti /
>>
>> atrocyate /
>>
>> anādau saṃsāre janyajanakabhāvena vyavasthitāstāvat kāścideva
>> strīpuruṣasantatayaḥ santi, tāsām anyonyavyatikareṇa jātāḥ
>> strīpuṃsavyaktayo *brāhmaṇaśabdavācyāḥ* /
>>
>> anidamprathamatayā ca santateḥ sarveṣāṃ tatsantatipatitatvāt *siddhā
>> brāhmaṇaśabdavācyatā /*
>>
>> tena santativiśeṣaprabhavatvameva brāhmaṇaśabdapravṛttāv upādhiḥ /
>>
>> tatprabhavānāmeva karmasvadhikāra iti na kiñcidavahīnam /
>>
>> ke punaste santativiśeṣāḥ /
>>
>> na te parigaṇayya nirdeṣṭuṃ śakyante, kintu lokata eva prasiddhāḥ
>> pratyetavyāḥ /
>>
>> tathā ca tajjanyatve 'vagate brāhmaṇaśabdaṃ prayuñjate lokāḥ /
>>
>> (…)
>> Best wishes,
>>
>> Christophe
>>
>> Le 16 juin 2016 à 20:41, Donald R Davis <drdj at austin.utexas.edu> a écrit :
>>
>> My thanks to Sam Wright who pointed me to the following:
>>
>> Wilhelm Halbfass, “Homo Hierarchicus: The Conceptualization of the Varna
>> System in Indian Thought,” in *Tradition and Reflecton*. SUNY Press,
>> 1991. [contains a long discussion of the jati as caste and as universal in
>> the works of several authors, including Jayanta and, especially, Kumarila
>> on pp. 363ff.]
>>
>> Samuel Wright, "History in the Abstract: ‘Brahman-ness’ and the Discipline
>> of Nyaya in Seventeenth-Century Varanasi.” *Journal of Indian Philosophy*,
>> forthcoming.
>>
>> The issue is discussed on page 204 in Sukla, S. N. (Ed.). (1971).  
>> *Nyāyamañjarī
>> of Jayanta Bhaṭṭa (Part I)*. The Kashi Sanskrit Series 106, Nyaya
>> Section No. 15. Varanasi: Chowkhamba Sanskrit Series Office.
>>
>> Best, Don
>>
>> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
>> Johannes Bronkhorst <johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch>
>> Date: Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 11:40 AM
>> To: rajam <rajam at earthlink.net>
>> Cc: Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>, "indology at list.indology.info" <
>> indology at list.indology.info>
>> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] J?ti as Caste in Ny?ya?
>>
>> Vincent Eltschinger’s *« Caste » et philosophie bouddhique* (Vienna 2000)
>> seems relevant in this connection. An English version of this book is also
>> available:
>>
>> *Caste and Buddhist Philosophy: Continuity of Some Buddhist Arguments
>> Against the Realist Interpretation of Social Denominations* (Motilal
>> Banarsidass 2012)
>> Johannes
>>
>> On 16 juin 2016, at 18:37, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>>
>> Many thanks to the originator of this thread!
>>
>> Right now, I just want to register the fact that I’m very much interested
>> in this topic.
>>
>> Last year (May 2015), I had a publication (in Tamil) about references to,
>> or a lack there of, “jāti” and “caste” (as we understand it today) in Old
>> Tamil literature/grammar, also known as Sangam literature/grammar.
>>
>> I don’t know how many of you are aware of the fact that the English
>> word “caste” has its origin in the Portuguese word “casta,” which was first
>> recorded in *Arte da Lingua Malabar* written by Fr. Henrique Henriques in
>> the mid-16th century.
>>
>> If one wants to dig deep into the understanding of the terms such as
>> “jāti” and “caste” … one has to have a minimal understanding of the origins
>> of the Western contact with India, which happened in the early 16-th
>> century through Portuguese arrival in South India.
>>
>> Thanks and regards,
>> V.S.Rajam
>>
>>
>> On Jun 16, 2016, at 8:53 AM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Don,
>>
>> This interests me a lot, and I'd be grateful to read what you might write
>> about it in future.  It's on my back-burner, but I've long wondered whether
>> Sanskritic narratives about jati and varna can be thought about in ways
>> similar to eighteenth and nineteenth century European narratives about
>> races and species.  Were people of different varnas formally considered to
>> be of different "species?"   It's a bit shocking to think in these terms,
>> but I've been wondering about it.  If you ever put flesh on these bones,
>> one way or another, or can point me to existing discussions on this, I'd be
>> really interested.
>>
>> Best,
>> Dominik
>>
>> --
>> Professor Dominik Wujastyk* <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
>> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
>> Department of History and Classics
>> <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
>> University of Alberta, Canada
>>
>> On 16 June 2016 at 08:53, Donald R Davis <drdj at austin.utexas.edu> wrote:
>>
>>> Dear Colleagues,
>>>
>>> I would be grateful for additional references to an argument mentioned in
>>> Jayanta Bhatta’s *Āgamaḍambara* 4.143-4 (in Dezso’s edition in the Clay
>>> series).  The question is whether the *jāti* of Brahmins, etc. is like
>>> the *jāti* of cow-ness, etc. in being empirically observable or directly
>>> perceivable.  Jayanta refers to those who say that verbal/textual testimony
>>> alone (*śabdamātreṇa*) establishes the four-*varṇa* system.  This
>>> prefigures an argument made in Vijñāneśvara’s *Mitākṣarā* (on Yaj 1.90)
>>> where the same distinction is drawn to refute an objection.
>>>
>>> I assumed Jayanta would have made a similar argument in his *
>>> Nyāyamañjarī*, but I have not been able to locate it (probably because I
>>> barely know the Nyāya literature).  If anyone could point me toward other
>>> instances of this issue, whether in original sources or contemporary
>>> research, I’d appreciate it.
>>>
>>> Best,
>>>
>>> Don Davis
>>> Dept of Asian Studies
>>> University of Texas at Austin
>>>
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>>
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>>
>> –––––––––––––––––––
>> Christophe Vielle <http://www.uclouvain.be/christophe.vielle>
>> Louvain-la-Neuve
>>
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>>
>> –––––––––––––––––––
>> Christophe Vielle <http://www.uclouvain.be/christophe.vielle>
>> Louvain-la-Neuve
>>
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>
>
>
> --
> Nagaraj Paturi
>
> Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.
>
> Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies
>
> FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,
>
> (Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

-- 
Prof. Dr. Eli Franco
Institut für Indologie und Zentralasienwissenschaften
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