[INDOLOGY] Jati as Caste in Nyaya?

Mon Jun 20 18:49:16 UTC 2016

> Jitari has written a short treatise on this subject called dvijAtidUSaNa

----- Does this treatise deal with the jaatitva of brahmaNatva as per
Nyaya, Mimamsa or Vyakarana darsanas?

or the question of  whether the *jāti* of Brahmins, etc. is like the *jāti*
of cow-ness, etc. in being empirically observable or directly perceivable ?

On Mon, Jun 20, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Franco <franco at uni-leipzig.de> wrote:

> Jitari has written a short treatise on this subject called dvijAtidUSaNa.
> It is not yet edited, but I have a preliminary transcription of it. If
> anyone is interested, please contact me off the list.
> Best wishes,
> Eli
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 19 Jun 2016, at 16:11, Christophe Vielle <
> christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be> wrote:
>
> See also the presentation of the problem of* j**ā**ti* in the *meya*
> portion of the *Mānameyodaya* (2, 3 = *j**ā**ti*, 1-18)
>
> Kunhan Raja C.  & Suryanarayana Sastri S. S. 21975, *Mānameyodaya of
> Nārāyaṇa B**haṭṭa and Nārāyaṇa Paṇḍita (an elementary treatise on the
> Mīmāṃsā)*, Madras, Adyar Library Series 105,  pp. 233-244.
> • p. 243 (17 - Bhāṭṭa conclusion):  "Thus is established 'Brahminness'.
> What apprehends it is the sense of sight itself assisted by the
> understanding of his being born of a Brahmin father and mother, whose
> Brahminness is not corrupted; hence it is not non-perceptible either"
>
> Cf. also (recognized as one of the main sources of the *Mānameyodaya*)
> the earlier Nītitattvāvirbhāva of Cidānanda (cf. éd. P. K. Narayana
> Pillai 1953, *Nītitattvāvirbhāva of Cidānandapaṇḍita*, Trivandrum, TSS
> 168 ; cf. republ. in K. T. Pandurangi 2008, *Cidānanda-paṇḍita-viracitaḥ,
> Nītitattvāvirbhāvaḥ, Mīmāṃsābhāṣyapariśiṣṭena Tantrarahasyena ca sahitaḥ*,
> Bangalore), the 20th topic of which is *Jātinirṇaya*, apparently more
> directed against the Buddhist views, without dealing with the problem of
> Brahminhood (abstract in Pandurangi 2008 pp. xvii-viii, EIPh 16, p.
> 114-15).
>
> I did not go into the provided Śālikanātha's text in details (and did not
> start to search into Prabhâkara's own commentatorial works where the
> original statements could be found), but from secondary sources, it
> appears that Bhāṭṭas and Prābhākaras differ here in the explanation. For
> both *j**ā**ti *is a perceptible category, but the relation of  *j**ā**ti* with
> individual is given as a combination of difference and non-difference for
> the former, whereas it is difference for the latter, according to whom the
> apposition (individual - universal) is through inherence. Prābhākaras
> admit the existence of genus/class of substance, but refuse to accept the
> existence of genus of quality and action.
> And according to Prābhākaras, differently from the case of cowness,
> Brahminhood or Kṣatriyahood are not considered as real *j**ā**ti*:
>
> • MM p. 239 (- 9): "Although the genus is thus established, the Guru
> [Prabhâkara] says that, since its cognition is invariably controlled by the
> knowledge of the earlier form, existence, soundness, Brahminness, etc.
> which have not that knowledge are non-existent".
>
> So the debate referred to could be internal to Mimamsakas rather than
> between Mimamsakas and Buddhists.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Christophe
>
> Le 17 juin 2016 à 20:00, John Taber <jataber at unm.edu> a écrit :
>
> Dear Don et al.,
>
> Since Christophe brought up Mīmāṃsā: the relevant passage in Kumārila is *
> Tantravārttika* ad MS 1.2.2. This is interpreted by Halbfass in the
> chapter of *Tradition and Reflection* mentioned by Sam Wright. (I look
> forward to reading his forthcoming article in JIP.)
>
> The issue for Kumārila is mainly the perceptibility of universals, as H.
> explains. The varṇas pose a sort of test case. It's not at all clear that
> one can just SEE that someone is a brahmin. K. argues that, even though
> various factors may be required to stimulate perception of a universal - in
> the case of Brahminhood, for instance, being told the person's lineage - it
> is perceptible nonetheless. Cf. Ślokavārttika Vanavāda 26-29, where the
> problem is discussed in more general terms; other problematic cases are
> mentioned there (e.g., how does one perceive gheeness in melted ghee? - by
> smelling or tasting it!). Some universals may be more difficult to perceive
> than others, but even if one has to climb to the top of a mountain in order
> to see something (presumably something very far away), that does not make
> it not perceptible (na hi yad giriśṛṅgam āruhya gṛhyate tad apratyakṣam, TV
> 1.2.2).
>
> There may be certain cultural prejudices in the background of Kumārila's
> discussion (here I'm thinking of what Dominik wrote and some of the things
> Halbfass says: Brahminhood is *determined* by a universal, not by
> conduct; it is *inherent* in someone; there's certainly no social
> mobility here!), but ultimately I think he is concerned to defend the
> notion that real (eternal) universals, which are perceptible, as opposed to
> the pseudo-universals of the Buddhists (apohas), are the meanings of words.
> Since the universal cowness is perceptible, we can SEE that that is the
> meaning of the word "cow" when someone points to a cow and says, "That is
> called a cow." Otherwise, it is not clear how the connected between word
> and meaning could ever be established.
>
> Cheers again,
> JT
>
>
> On Jun 17, 2016, at 7:08 AM, Christophe Vielle <
> christophe.vielle at uclouvain.be> wrote:
>
> Dear Don,
>
> The problem is also epistemologically discussed by the
> Prabhakara-mimamsaka Śālikanātha in the *Prakaraṇapañcikā*, *prakaraṇa* 4
> : *Jātinirṇaya*
>
>  See short abstract of this chapter in
>
> Potter K. H. éd. 2014, *Philosophy of Pūrva-**Mīmāṃsā*, Delhi,
> Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies 16, pp. 308-309 (relying on Verpoorten
> and Pandurangi)
>
> The 1961 Benares edition of the PP is available here :
>
> http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/383225
>
> (better scan than :
>
> http://www.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/541509
>
> http://www.dli.ernet.in/handle/2015/311115  )
>
> Here below an extract of the Sansknet input on GRETIL
>
>
> http://gretil.sub.uni-goettingen.de/gretil/1_sanskr/6_sastra/3_phil/mimamsa/prakp04u.htm
>
>
> (…)
>
> tad idam apahastitam, yad āhuḥ
>
> "śabdatvam eva tattadasādhāraṇābhivyañjakadhvaninibandhanatayā
> nānāvarṇapeṇa viṣayībhavat tasya tasyārthasyāvagamāya kalpata" iti /
>
> *brāhmaṇatvādijāti*nirākaraṇam /
>
> anayaiva ca diśā brāhmaṇatvādijātir api nivāritā /
>
> nahi nānāstrīpuruṣavyaktiṣu
> puruṣatvādarthāntarabhūtamekamākāramātmasātkurvāntī matirāvirbhavati /
>
> nahi kṣatriyādibhyo vyāvartamānaṃ
> sakalabrāhmaṇeṣvanuvartamānamekamākāramaticiramanusandadhato 'pi budhyante /
>
> yadapyāhuḥ- yadyapyāpātasaṃjātayā dhiyā brāhmaṇyaṃ nāvasīyate, tathāpi
> brāhmaṇabhūtamātāpitṛsambandhānusandhānaprabhavāyāṃ banddhau taccakāstīti /
>
> tadapi ca svamānasavisaṃvādi /
>
> anusandadhāno 'pi mātāpitṛsambandhaṃ ko jātvekamākāramavaboddhuṃ
> prabhavati /
>
> yaccopadarśitam---yathā vilīnamājyaṃ tailādavyatiricyamānaṃ
> gandhagrahaṇasahakāriṇā cakṣuṣaiva bhinnamavagamtaya---iti /
>
> tadapi na sundaram /
>
> nahi tadānīṃ cākṣuṣasya saṃvedanasya viṣayātirekaḥ, kintvanumānameva tatra
> sarpiṣaḥ /
>
> yastu nipuṇadarśo sūkṣmamapi rūpamīkṣituṃ kṣamaḥ, sa cakṣuṣaivājyajātimapi
> pratyeti, na gandhagrahaṇamapekṣate /
>
> nanvevaṃ bahvavahīnam, kiṃnibandhano hi tadānīmāhavanīyādisādhyakarmasu
> keṣāñcidadhikāro nānyeṣām; kiṃnibandhanā ca *brāhmaṇaśabda*sya
> pravṛttivyavasthā iti /
>
> atrocyate /
>
> anādau saṃsāre janyajanakabhāvena vyavasthitāstāvat kāścideva
> strīpuruṣasantatayaḥ santi, tāsām anyonyavyatikareṇa jātāḥ
> strīpuṃsavyaktayo *brāhmaṇaśabdavācyāḥ* /
>
> anidamprathamatayā ca santateḥ sarveṣāṃ tatsantatipatitatvāt *siddhā
> brāhmaṇaśabdavācyatā /*
>
> tena santativiśeṣaprabhavatvameva brāhmaṇaśabdapravṛttāv upādhiḥ /
>
> tatprabhavānāmeva karmasvadhikāra iti na kiñcidavahīnam /
>
> ke punaste santativiśeṣāḥ /
>
> na te parigaṇayya nirdeṣṭuṃ śakyante, kintu lokata eva prasiddhāḥ
> pratyetavyāḥ /
>
> tathā ca tajjanyatve 'vagate brāhmaṇaśabdaṃ prayuñjate lokāḥ /
>
> (…)
> Best wishes,
>
> Christophe
>
> Le 16 juin 2016 à 20:41, Donald R Davis <drdj at austin.utexas.edu> a écrit :
>
> My thanks to Sam Wright who pointed me to the following:
>
> Wilhelm Halbfass, “Homo Hierarchicus: The Conceptualization of the Varna
> System in Indian Thought,” in *Tradition and Reflecton*. SUNY Press,
> 1991. [contains a long discussion of the jati as caste and as universal in
> the works of several authors, including Jayanta and, especially, Kumarila
> on pp. 363ff.]
>
> Samuel Wright, "History in the Abstract: ‘Brahman-ness’ and the Discipline
> of Nyaya in Seventeenth-Century Varanasi.” *Journal of Indian Philosophy*,
> forthcoming.
>
> The issue is discussed on page 204 in Sukla, S. N. (Ed.). (1971). *Nyāyamañjarī
> of Jayanta Bhaṭṭa (Part I)*. The Kashi Sanskrit Series 106, Nyaya
> Section No. 15. Varanasi: Chowkhamba Sanskrit Series Office.
>
> Best, Don
>
> From: INDOLOGY <indology-bounces at list.indology.info> on behalf of
> Johannes Bronkhorst <johannes.bronkhorst at unil.ch>
> Date: Thursday, June 16, 2016 at 11:40 AM
> To: rajam <rajam at earthlink.net>
> Cc: Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com>, "indology at list.indology.info" <
> indology at list.indology.info>
> Subject: Re: [INDOLOGY] J?ti as Caste in Ny?ya?
>
> Vincent Eltschinger’s *« Caste » et philosophie bouddhique* (Vienna 2000)
> seems relevant in this connection. An English version of this book is also
> available:
>
> *Caste and Buddhist Philosophy: Continuity of Some Buddhist Arguments
> Against the Realist Interpretation of Social Denominations* (Motilal
> Banarsidass 2012)
> Johannes
>
> On 16 juin 2016, at 18:37, rajam <rajam at earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> Many thanks to the originator of this thread!
>
> Right now, I just want to register the fact that I’m very much interested
> in this topic.
>
> Last year (May 2015), I had a publication (in Tamil) about references to,
> or a lack there of, “jāti” and “caste” (as we understand it today) in Old
> Tamil literature/grammar, also known as Sangam literature/grammar.
>
> I don’t know how many of you are aware of the fact that the English
> word “caste” has its origin in the Portuguese word “casta,” which was first
> recorded in *Arte da Lingua Malabar* written by Fr. Henrique Henriques in
> the mid-16th century.
>
> If one wants to dig deep into the understanding of the terms such as
> “jāti” and “caste” … one has to have a minimal understanding of the origins
> of the Western contact with India, which happened in the early 16-th
> century through Portuguese arrival in South India.
>
> Thanks and regards,
> V.S.Rajam
>
>
> On Jun 16, 2016, at 8:53 AM, Dominik Wujastyk <wujastyk at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Dear Don,
>
> This interests me a lot, and I'd be grateful to read what you might write
> about it in future.  It's on my back-burner, but I've long wondered whether
> Sanskritic narratives about jati and varna can be thought about in ways
> similar to eighteenth and nineteenth century European narratives about
> races and species.  Were people of different varnas formally considered to
> be of different "species?"   It's a bit shocking to think in these terms,
> but I've been wondering about it.  If you ever put flesh on these bones,
> one way or another, or can point me to existing discussions on this, I'd be
> really interested.
>
> Best,
> Dominik
>
> --
> Professor Dominik Wujastyk* <http://ualberta.academia.edu/DominikWujastyk>
> Singhmar Chair in Classical Indian Society and Polity
> Department of History and Classics
> <http://historyandclassics.ualberta.ca/>
> University of Alberta, Canada
>
> On 16 June 2016 at 08:53, Donald R Davis <drdj at austin.utexas.edu> wrote:
>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>> I would be grateful for additional references to an argument mentioned in
>> Jayanta Bhatta’s *Āgamaḍambara* 4.143-4 (in Dezso’s edition in the Clay
>> series).  The question is whether the *jāti* of Brahmins, etc. is like
>> the *jāti* of cow-ness, etc. in being empirically observable or directly
>> perceivable.  Jayanta refers to those who say that verbal/textual testimony
>> alone (*śabdamātreṇa*) establishes the four-*varṇa* system.  This
>> prefigures an argument made in Vijñāneśvara’s *Mitākṣarā* (on Yaj 1.90)
>> where the same distinction is drawn to refute an objection.
>>
>> I assumed Jayanta would have made a similar argument in his *
>> Nyāyamañjarī*, but I have not been able to locate it (probably because I
>> barely know the Nyāya literature).  If anyone could point me toward other
>> instances of this issue, whether in original sources or contemporary
>> research, I’d appreciate it.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Don Davis
>> Dept of Asian Studies
>> University of Texas at Austin
>>
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> –––––––––––––––––––
> Christophe Vielle <http://www.uclouvain.be/christophe.vielle>
> Louvain-la-Neuve
>
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>
> –––––––––––––––––––
> Christophe Vielle <http://www.uclouvain.be/christophe.vielle>
> Louvain-la-Neuve
>
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-- 
Nagaraj Paturi

Hyderabad, Telangana, INDIA.

Former Senior Professor of Cultural Studies

FLAME School of Communication and FLAME School of  Liberal Education,

(Pune, Maharashtra, INDIA )

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