[INDOLOGY] Mind and moon

Mon Aug 1 10:39:05 UTC 2016

Dear Seishi,

Thank you for this contribution. I now have the Gonda article, thanks to Rembert Lutjeharms. 
Gonda refers to the Senart and Deussen works, but finds both unsatisfactory, and I agree 
with him. The words just aren't sufficiently similar to justify Senart, and Deussen is too 
fanciful and lacking precise reference to Vedic ideas.

With best wishes,

Dermot

On 31 Jul 2016 at 19:01, Seishi Karashima wrote:

Dear colleagues,

"Jeu de mots sur mans et candrama, radical man et radical ma (sic)"
should be corrected to:
"Jeu de mots sur manas et candrama, radical man et radical ma (sic)"

Seishi Karashima

2016-07-31 18:52 GMT+09:00 Seishi Karashima <skarashima at gmail.com >:
Dear colleagues,
I assume that, when Renou associated etymologically candramas 
with manas, he may have had Senart's explanation in his mind. 
Senart had explained this association as being based on a play 
on the roots ma in candramas "moon" and man in manas: 
Émile Senart, Essai sur la légende du Buddha: Son caractère et ses 
origines, 2e éd., revue et suivie d'un index, Paris 1882: E. Leroux, p. 94, 
n. 3 "Jeu de mots sur mans et candrama, radical man et radical ma 
(sic)".
Cf. also Paul Deussen, Allgemeine Geschichte der Philosophie: Mit 
besonderer Berücksichtigung der Religionen, Leipzig 1920: F.A. 
Brockhaus, (4. Auflage), I, 1, p. 156, "dass endlich sein Manas zum 
Monde wird, hat vielleicht seinen Grund darin, dass die ruhige Klarheit 
des Mondlichts (welches ja auch nach Goethe "die Seele löst") als 
Symbol des Intellektuellen erschien."
The best article on this topic is probably: Jan Gonda, "Mind and Moon", 
in: Deyadharma, Studies in Memory of Dr. D.C. Sircar, edited by 
Gouriswar Bhattacharya, Delhi: Sri Satguru Publications, distributed by 
Indian Book Center, 1986 (Sri Garib Dass Oriental Series ; no. 33), pp. 
147-160 = Selected Studies, Leiden et al. 1991: Brill, vol. VI, pt. 2, pp. 
423-436.
With best regards,
Seishi Karashima
    2016-07-28 17:35 GMT+09:00 <dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk>:
    Thanks, Valerie, for the Varahamihira quote. It shows an extension of the 
    microcosm idea to
    the planets, keeping the mind-moon pair (but not the eye-sun one). The 
    mind-moon pair is
    one of the most stable of these pairings, as well as the least explicable.

    Verbal similarities can be very profound, especially in the Brahmanas. But in this 
    case I'm not
    sure there is much verbal similarity: in RV 10.90.13 the words are manas and 
    candramas (in
    Brhadaranyaka Up. 3.2.13 it's manas and candra, which is even less similar). It's 
    not a
    similarity of the same order as indra-indha (Satapatha Br 6.1.1.2; Brh Up 4.2.2). 
    That made
    me wonder whether Renou, in invoking word-play as an explanation, was misled 
    by his
    knowledge of the Indo-European cognates of Skt mas and manas.

    With best wishes,

    Dermot

    On 28 Jul 2016 at 7:45, Valerie Roebuck wrote:

    I think it's meant to be a bit more profound than a verbal similarity - though of 
    course these
    were widely thought not to be merely coincidental. We find the same 
    correspondence in
    astrological texts, too, e.g. in Varahamihira's Bhajjataka, Chapter 2 v. 1a, where 
    the seven
    planets of the ancient world are placed on the macrocosmic man of Time.

    kalatma dina-krn manas tuhinagu satva kujo jño vaco jivo jñana-sukhe sita´s ca 
    madano
    dukha dine´satmaja /

    The Sun ['Day-maker'] is the self (atman) of Time, the Moon ['Cool-rayed'] his 
    mind (manas),
    Mars ['Earth-born'] his courage, Mercury ['Knower'] his speech, Jupiter ['Life'] his 
    knowledge
    and happiness, Venus ['White One'] his desire, and Saturn ['Son of the Lord of 
    Day'] his
    suffering.

    The Moon has a very important place in Indian astrology, but here perhaps it is 
    regarded as
    representing a less profound (because more changeable?) level of being than the 
    Sun.

    Valerie J Roebuck
    Manchester, UK

    On 28 Jul 2016, at 06:32, naresh keerthi <nakeerthi at gmail.com> wrote:

    Renou Etudes Vediques vol XVI p. 150 says it's a play on words.

    I don't have access to this source, but is it possible that this conjecture is based 
    on the
    similarity of mati = mind [Sanskrit, but also used in Tamil] and mati = moon in 
    Tamil?

    Best,
    Naresh Keerthi
    National Institute of Advanced Studies,
    Bangalore

    ------------------------------

    Message: 2
    Date: Wed, 27 Jul 2016 10:47:45 +0100
    From: dermot at grevatt.force9.co.uk
    To: indology at list.indology.info
    Subject: [INDOLOGY] Mind and moon
    Message-ID: <57988341.1727.8FD05B at dermot.grevatt.force9.co.uk>
    Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

    Can anyone explain why the mind is the microcosmic counterpart of the moon?
    The
    correspondence appears in Rgveda 10.90.13 and in countless passages of the
    Brahmanas
    and Upanisads, but it's not obvious like breath and wind.

    Renou ?tudes V?diques vol XVI p. 150 says it's a play on words. I find that hard
    to accept,
    because the words (candra-mas and manas) are not very similar (they are in
    Latin, but the
    sages didn't have access to an Indo-European comparative dictionary).

    Could the connection be through soma (often linked or identified with the moon),
    since the
    mind is called a pavitra through which poetic insight (dhI) flows and becomes
    offerings
    (Gonda Vision of the Vedic Poets pp. 278-9)?

    Or is it that the mind, like the moon, is constant though its content continually
    changes?

    --
    Dermot Killingley
    9, Rectory Drive,
    Gosforth,
    Newcastle upon Tyne NE3 1XT
    Phone (0191) 285 8053

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    Phone (0191) 285 8053

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Newcastle upon Tyne NE3 1XT
Phone (0191) 285 8053